<< <i>Years and years of collecting coins or even dealing coins in no way shape or form makes someone an automatic expert of anything. >>
Nor does a single year of experience buying graded toned coins.
Russ, NCNE >>
Precisely. What this means is that no one is the end all be all expert. Knowledge and wisdom of toned coins is achieved in the quality of teachings and trusting one's ability to understand the logistics, not in the quantity of years of collecting. I have met some dealers at shows with many many years of experience in the coin hobby who deal with toned coins, and some of the input and feedback I've heard is nothing short of amusing. Conversely, I've met and talked to dealers who certainly have a handle on the toned coin market, and the science of toning. Trust who you listen to, and listen to those you trust.
Dizzy, I'm not saying you're right or wrong and have no opinion on this thing.... because frankly I just don't care Heh.
Perhaps you might listen to a collector once in a while though. Rather than belittle them for their opinions that don't agree with all the dealers you've spoke with. Take my advice or leave it, it's all good.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>Dizzy, I'm not saying you're right or wrong and have no opinion on this thing.... because frankly I just don't care Heh.
Perhaps you might listen to a collector once in a while though. Rather than belittle them for their opinions that don't agree with all the dealers you've spoke with. Take my advice or leave it, it's all good. >>
Steve, you always seem to have a way with, advertently or inadvertently, humbling me and putting things in their proper perspective. I certainly don't mean to 'belittle' anyone and there is no way that everyone is going to agree on everything in this hobby. Hey, we're lucky if we all agree on anything. I do indeed need to be a bit more receptive when issues come up that I feel strongly about. I'm going to work on that.
I've met a guy in Chicago a couple years back who does Peace dollars exactly like that one, nearly to a T, he sells them for 50 bucks each in flips. He had a roll of 22-Ps and a roll of 24-Ps at the time, every coin identical. At one time he said he got a couple of them to grade at NGC too, LOLOL.
<<< Mr. Russ, you don't know me and vice versa, but if you did, you would know that when I get "into" a hobby, I 'GET INTO' a hobby. My studies, experience, contacts, conversations, show experiences etc. etc. in the last year and a half has gained me more knowledge and understanding than many collectors might gain in many years of being part of this hobby >>>
<< <i><<< Mr. Russ, you don't know me and vice versa, but if you did, you would know that when I get "into" a hobby, I 'GET INTO' a hobby. My studies, experience, contacts, conversations, show experiences etc. etc. in the last year and a half has gained me more knowledge and understanding than many collectors might gain in many years of being part of this hobby >>>
I like my toning to be less dramatic. In most cases, I would prefer for it to complement the coin, not distract from it. Since this one is a Kennedy half, perhaps it is better that it does distract.
AT vs. NT? There are people that are far more qualified to answer the question than I, and frankly, the answer might change over time. So might the coin. At any rate, any coin that generates a heated argument over whether the toning is natural or enhanced is one that I personally would avoid.
<< <i>Toning that goes equally over the lettering/date/legned is a classic sign of caution and raises a red flag with toning. Notice any Morgan with NT toning and see how the toning flows over the lettering. It looks different than that, hence I can see how one could come to the conclusion as AT without any other factors to consider. >>
With all due respect, you have NO idea what you are talking about. As many toning experts here have already confirmed, this coin is inarguably Naturally Toned. Perhaps you should stayed focused on discussing threads with nice white coins...
Doug >>
Seems like you are protesting too much, which means you are getting emotional, perhaps because you own the coin and have a vested interest at assuring us that it is NT. First off I did not say it was AT, just that I could see how some could come to that conclusion. Second I do know what I am talking about. It is not clearly NT, and is not "inarguably" and if you think it is clearly you should really talk to Bob Campbell, maybe even take a seminar by him or even check out his video from the ANA library, all of which I have done.
The coin is clearly air transfer, that's good, the color rainbow is in the correct order, again good for NT, and PCGS agrees that it is NT. But it is not clearly, of course not knowing provenance, e.g. it was sent to PCGS in the original mint packaging, clearly proving that it was. NT. We all know that PCGS is ALWAYS correct.
The factor that I believe that any knowledgeable coin guy would have a few reasons to think there is a possibility that it is AT, like I stated before, is how the colors flow over the details. Its one thing to have even toning over the fields but another over the details. Bob Campbell states in his teachings to watch for this, the reason being is that air flows around details and deposits the reacting chemicals in differing quantity depending on how air flows around and over the coin. If something occurs rapidly, with fast moving air, and not over long periods of time, it will not move around the details, like the date. Note the other pictures in the post of the other toned coins and how the toning differs depending on the depth of the devices. Another thing Bob Campbell states is that the metal that flows into the details like the date is hardened and will not react the same as a smooth field with the reacting chemicals and often will not even tone. This coin violates some of the basic tests and passes some of them - result you can not state that is is clearly AT or NT. Personally I pass judgement, since I have not seen the coin in hand.
Any "Expert"? Am I incorrect about my analysis of this coin?
Wow, could your diatribe waffle more? You are ALL over the place on your opinions here...covering all your bases I guess...playing it safe...<yawn>. The vast majority of toned experts and dealers have opined here and many other times and you are in the minority. See the coin in hand and then judge = but try not to waffle again! Its embarassing for all of us.
The toned Frankie thread was obviously just a teaser to get folks to open the thread...
<< <i>and i will throw in my 2 cents and say i.m.h opinion - i go with A.T ..........
now go ahead , string me up and cut my testicals off .......... >>
No need, you just did it to yourself with your opinion.
Nice to meet you at the show, by the way!
Doug >>
OH my ~~~~ ``~!!!
you mean THAT coin , owned by my dear friend Doug
what am i - blind ??
Now i see the coin in it`s true light - and yes, by jinkies ...........IT IS N.T ~~~~!!
but this brings up a good point about ownership influencing opinions........
Not knowing the identity of the owner- i had no hesitation to call it a.t.
Now, realizing the owner is a guy i met at the show, with a case FULL of
monster toned goodies, my mind is changed ..........
I have met hundreds and hundreds of dealers , but this Doug struck me as something special-
as i`m sure he is ..............
point being : had i known it was his coin -i never would have said it was A.T. .........
even if i thought it was ! ! >>
You are right about knowing the person and it really can matter beyond that familiarity if that person is known for specializing in a certain area (in this case natural toning). Thanks for the kind words as well. I look forward to seeing you and the other fine forum folks I met at other shows. Doug
<< <i> Wow, could your diatribe waffle more? You are ALL over the place on your opinions here...covering all your bases I guess...playing it safe...<yawn>. The vast majority of toned experts and dealers have opined here and many other times and you are in the minority. See the coin in hand and then judge = but try not to waffle again! Its embarassing for all of us.
The toned Frankie thread was obviously just a teaser to get folks to open the thread...
Doug >>
LOL, OK, whatever you say. If you have real stones you would try for an upgrade and crack it raw but you would never do that because you know that could EASILY come back in a body bag for QT. C'mon, Ill even pay the grading fee.
<< <i>LOL, OK, whatever you say. If you have real stones you would try for an upgrade and crack it raw but you would never do that because you know that could EASILY come back in a body bag for QT. C'mon, Ill even pay the grading fee. >>
The grade on this coin is not where the value is - it is in the toning! I thought you knew about coins? Seriously, I believe it slabs 99 out of a 100 times at PCGS or NGC. Thanks for the debates Clackamas.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Years and years of collecting coins or even dealing coins in no way shape or form makes someone an automatic expert of anything. >>
Nor does a single year of experience buying graded toned coins.
Russ, NCNE >>
Precisely.
Perhaps you might listen to a collector once in a while though. Rather than belittle them for their opinions that don't agree with all the dealers you've spoke with. Take my advice or leave it, it's all good.
<< <i>Dizzy, I'm not saying you're right or wrong and have no opinion on this thing.... because frankly I just don't care Heh.
Perhaps you might listen to a collector once in a while though. Rather than belittle them for their opinions that don't agree with all the dealers you've spoke with. Take my advice or leave it, it's all good.
Steve, you always seem to have a way with, advertently or inadvertently, humbling me and putting things in their proper perspective. I certainly don't mean to 'belittle' anyone and there is no way that everyone is going to agree on everything in this hobby. Hey, we're lucky if we all agree on anything. I do indeed need to be a bit more receptive when issues come up that I feel strongly about. I'm going to work on that.
<< <i>
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>How could anyone dislike you? >>
Perhaps the under-bidders of the few toned treasures I've won at auction.
Yeah......if you say so
<< <i>
<< <i>How could anyone dislike you? >>
Perhaps the under-bidders of the few toned treasures I've won at auction.
I was talking to Steve, you insufferable egomaniac.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How could anyone dislike you? >>
Perhaps the under-bidders of the few toned treasures I've won at auction.
I was talking to Steve, you insufferable egomaniac. >>
How? very easily..... and I'm OK with that!
<< <i><<< Mr. Russ, you don't know me and vice versa, but if you did, you would know that when I get "into" a hobby, I 'GET INTO' a hobby. My studies, experience, contacts, conversations, show experiences etc. etc. in the last year and a half has gained me more knowledge and understanding than many collectors might gain in many years of being part of this hobby >>>
Yeah......if you say so
Yeah.... I do.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How could anyone dislike you? >>
Perhaps the under-bidders of the few toned treasures I've won at auction.
I was talking to Steve, you insufferable egomaniac. >>
I like my toning to be less dramatic. In most cases, I would prefer for it to complement the coin, not distract from it. Since this one is a Kennedy half, perhaps it is better that it does distract.
AT vs. NT? There are people that are far more qualified to answer the question than I, and frankly, the answer might change over time. So might the coin. At any rate, any coin that generates a heated argument over whether the toning is natural or enhanced is one that I personally would avoid.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Toning that goes equally over the lettering/date/legned is a classic sign of caution and raises a red flag with toning. Notice any Morgan with NT toning and see how the toning flows over the lettering. It looks different than that, hence I can see how one could come to the conclusion as AT without any other factors to consider. >>
With all due respect, you have NO idea what you are talking about. As many toning experts here have already confirmed, this coin is inarguably Naturally Toned. Perhaps you should stayed focused on discussing threads with nice white coins...
Doug >>
Seems like you are protesting too much, which means you are getting emotional, perhaps because you own the coin and have a vested interest at assuring us that it is NT. First off I did not say it was AT, just that I could see how some could come to that conclusion. Second I do know what I am talking about. It is not clearly NT, and is not "inarguably" and if you think it is clearly you should really talk to Bob Campbell, maybe even take a seminar by him or even check out his video from the ANA library, all of which I have done.
The coin is clearly air transfer, that's good, the color rainbow is in the correct order, again good for NT, and PCGS agrees that it is NT. But it is not clearly, of course not knowing provenance, e.g. it was sent to PCGS in the original mint packaging, clearly proving that it was. NT. We all know that PCGS is ALWAYS correct.
The factor that I believe that any knowledgeable coin guy would have a few reasons to think there is a possibility that it is AT, like I stated before, is how the colors flow over the details. Its one thing to have even toning over the fields but another over the details. Bob Campbell states in his teachings to watch for this, the reason being is that air flows around details and deposits the reacting chemicals in differing quantity depending on how air flows around and over the coin. If something occurs rapidly, with fast moving air, and not over long periods of time, it will not move around the details, like the date. Note the other pictures in the post of the other toned coins and how the toning differs depending on the depth of the devices. Another thing Bob Campbell states is that the metal that flows into the details like the date is hardened and will not react the same as a smooth field with the reacting chemicals and often will not even tone. This coin violates some of the basic tests and passes some of them - result you can not state that is is clearly AT or NT. Personally I pass judgement, since I have not seen the coin in hand.
Any "Expert"? Am I incorrect about my analysis of this coin?
BTW - why did you need to ask if this was NT or AT?1960 Frankiln thread >>
Wow, could your diatribe waffle more? You are ALL over the place on your opinions here...covering all your bases I guess...playing it safe...<yawn>. The vast majority of toned experts and dealers have opined here and many other times and you are in the minority. See the coin in hand and then judge = but try not to waffle again! Its embarassing for all of us.
The toned Frankie thread was obviously just a teaser to get folks to open the thread...
Doug
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>and i will throw in my 2 cents and say i.m.h opinion - i go with A.T ..........
now go ahead , string me up and cut my testicals off .......... >>
No need, you just did it to yourself with your opinion.
Nice to meet you at the show, by the way!
Doug >>
OH my ~~~~ ``~!!!
you mean THAT coin , owned by my dear friend Doug
what am i - blind ??
Now i see the coin in it`s true light - and yes, by jinkies ...........IT IS N.T ~~~~!!
but this brings up a good point about ownership influencing opinions........
Not knowing the identity of the owner- i had no hesitation to call it a.t.
Now, realizing the owner is a guy i met at the show, with a case FULL of
monster toned goodies, my mind is changed ..........
I have met hundreds and hundreds of dealers , but this Doug struck me as something special-
as i`m sure he is ..............
point being : had i known it was his coin -i never would have said it was A.T. .........
even if i thought it was ! ! >>
You are right about knowing the person and it really can matter beyond that familiarity if that person is known for specializing in a certain area (in this case natural toning). Thanks for the kind words as well. I look forward to seeing you and the other fine forum folks I met at other shows. Doug
<< <i>you insufferable egomaniac. >>
Want an autograph??? I only charge $10......... per letter.
<< <i>
Wow, could your diatribe waffle more? You are ALL over the place on your opinions here...covering all your bases I guess...playing it safe...<yawn>. The vast majority of toned experts and dealers have opined here and many other times and you are in the minority. See the coin in hand and then judge = but try not to waffle again! Its embarassing for all of us.
The toned Frankie thread was obviously just a teaser to get folks to open the thread...
Doug >>
LOL, OK, whatever you say. If you have real stones you would try for an upgrade and crack it raw but you would never do that because you know that could EASILY come back in a body bag for QT. C'mon, Ill even pay the grading fee.
<< <i>LOL, OK, whatever you say. If you have real stones you would try for an upgrade and crack it raw but you would never do that because you know that could EASILY come back in a body bag for QT. C'mon, Ill even pay the grading fee. >>
The grade on this coin is not where the value is - it is in the toning! I thought you knew about coins?
Doug