Guess the grade - Result posted - what caused the damage?

Udo

I'm having a hard time to understand US-grading and although I've got me a copy of the "PCGS Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection" Us-grading is still a mystery for me.

Sentences like: "MS64 = There may be numerous marks/hairlines, including several major marks/hairlines in main focal areas" and so forth were not very helpful for me.

How many marks? How large are they allowed to be?

Perhaps you can help me understand it better.


Below you see a coin that was submitted to a major TPG once, guess what the result was. It would be very nice if you could give me a statement about your vote.

The coin is a Bavarian 2 Mark 1896, rotated reverse die. Please consider the reverse rim at the "H" of Reich.

The coin has luster although I couldn't capture it very good in the pic. If you think it was a bodybag, please let me hear your opinion about the grade anyway (for example: "AU58 details, but BB").

ajaan

AU55 Wear on head.

coinkat

MS62 tops. The strike is typical and as with the 5 Mark coin, the hair is not always fully struck.

The main reason I think a 62 is tops is because of the rim above REICH... that almost looks filed and if it got a BB, that would be the main reason.

Overall, a nice coin and the pre 1900 issues seem to be tough in this state of preservation. Nice picture too...

ajaan

The more I look at the coin, the more I'm thinking BB for damage. With TPGers one can never tell.

coinpictures

In my opinion either Bodybag due to the rim damage or AU58... it looks like there's a faint amount of wear along the base of the bust on the obverse, although that could just be the lighting in the photo...

ROBERTB

BB, something about the surfaces just "rub" me the wrong way.

spoon

vz-st or fast stempelglanz



or MS61. There are a few minor dings in the hair and elsewhere, but my eyes could be lying. The OBV looks like it received some rub but I don't see it in the REV? I'd guess the rim damage came from being dropped on a rough surface.

Nice coin regardless of grade though
(Professional grading confuses me too so I thank you for this thread and look forward to other responses!)

spinaker2000

BB'ed for rim damage.

JamminJ

Here's a grading data point on a very similar coin:

1960NYGiants

BB rim damage above REICH

3Mark

Udo:

This is a tough coin to grade Otto of Bavaria has always been hard to grade because of the lack of a beard You could have also picked a coin of Fredrich II of Baden or Ernst Ludwig of Hesse for the same reason. They never seem to have struck up well until you look at a proof of this type.

Okay, so I'm going with MS64 and for these reasons. Obverse has a few marks with decent toning on both sides. The reverse is at least a MS67+, as the reverse on KR German silver coins were struck in a lower relief than the obverse and generally take few hits. I'm going to ignore the rim on the reverse and call it "as made". The machine that put the edge inscription on KR silver coins malfunctioned from time to time and without the coin in hand, I will attribute it to this. For example, the 1915 Prussia 3 Mark Mansfeld has these problems and the way to tell if the Mansfeld is real is to look for edge damage. All real ones have it. The only real thing I see on the reverse in a slight rim nick above the date. I may have missed by a mile3Mark

Udo

Thanks for your opinions so far.

Anybody else wants to try a guess?

There's nothing to loose if you're wrong, you can only grade what you see from the pic, so come on, don't be shy.

Let me hear your opinions.

worldcoinguy

Good post. I would guess bodybag for rim damage, but I suppose it depends on the TPG. If it made it past the rim damage, I would guess MS61.

MacCrimmon

<< <i>BB rim damage above REICH >>





The coin has had it's reverse rim filed; so, BB.

That aside, I would grade it as an AU53 for wear due to the apparent rub in the hair and the circ. marks in the hair and on the cheek/jaw), and net grade it (for valuation) as EF40.

Udo, may I suggest saving for a trip to the ANA in Colorado Springs one summer for the grading classes which are offered. The best way to really learn how to grade is 'hands-on' with constructive feedback as to why your grade is high or low on a given coin. Adjectives in a book are useless when trying to describe or dissect the delineations of different grades, especially in choice AU and above.

Cheers.

Preussen

By details & hits, MS63. The rim damage is a definite concern to me. I agree with 3Mark that the edge-inscription process often damaged rims, but don't all KR 2 Marks have reeded edges, or is it just Prussia? - Preussen

Edited for spelling.

Udo

Thanks all for your opinions.

And the result was:
































My picture is bad The coin has no wear, for those who thought it had wear, it was certainly caused through the lighting.


I must confess, I didn't recognize the rim damage while it was in the slab and since the day I saw it, I'm wondering how a coin with such a damage could have been graded.

For good or ill, the graders must have thought that this damage was mint caused, I assume. And in fact something went wrong with the coin, the rotated die, the funny looking rim on the reverse with a "bulge" from * DEUTSCHES to the damage at REICH.

What could have caused that damage?

Any opinions appreciated.

coinkat

something that likely happened outside the mint... I agree that it is a Mint State coin and 63, is not an unreasonable grade. I have this feeling it looks better in hand

Preussen

<< <i>Thanks all for your opinions.

And the result was:


>>



Does this mean I won your generous giveaway?

- Preussen

crito

<< <i>TAnd in fact something went wrong with the coin, the rotated die, the funny looking rim on the reverse with a "bulge" from * DEUTSCHES to the damage at REICH.

What could have caused that damage? >>



Minor misalignment of the dies caused that line and bulge in rim, and that did happen at the mint. So I have to agree with MacCrimmon that the BB was because it looks like coin was filed/shaved above CH in REICH. Damage is otherwise minor (doesn't extend into field) so guess BB was due to the type of rim damage and not the extent of the rim damage, in this particular case.

Hard to believe anyone could make a living shaving such a miniscule amount of silver off coins though...

IlikeZARcoins

Udo - try resubmitting it and see what grade it comes back with.

Udo

<< <i>Udo, may I suggest saving for a trip to the ANA in Colorado Springs one summer for the grading classes which are offered. >>



That's a great idea MacGrimmon, I would gladly join such a course.

Somewhere along the way I want to visit the US, but my wife and the kids would be angry with me if I'd leave them at home. Must start saving and will play Lotto this weekend.

Udo

<< <i>something that likely happened outside the mint... I agree that it is a Mint State coin and 63, is not an unreasonable grade. I have this feeling it looks better in hand >>



coincat, I guess we'll never learn. I too agree that is uncirculated and you're right, it is nicer in hand.

Udo

<< <i>Does this mean I won your generous giveaway?

- Preussen >>



Steve, NOPE!

Udo

<< <i>So I have to agree with MacCrimmon that the BB was because it looks like coin was filed/shaved above CH in REICH. >>



crito, thanks for your opinion. Perhaps the pic with the label didn't show up on your monitor, it wasn't bodybagged.

However, if I didn't know the coin and somebody asked me if it would grade, I'd clearly state bodybag, like most of you did.

Udo

<< <i>Udo - try resubmitting it and see what grade it comes back with. >>



Marcel, I might consider this just for fun, but I'm wondering how often I'll have to submit it to get it into plastic.

1jester

I also thought it would grade 63, despite the damage on the rim. The reverse is definitely a 66+ and the obverse more like a 62/3 but with a weaker strike. In any case, I think the slight rim damage could have come from someone dropping it on concrete or some other rough surface; there are some other corresponding rim nicks opposite it and on other parts of the rim. That's my guess, and I'm sticking with it!

IlikeZARcoins

Interestingly enough I am now reading the Coin Grading Guide that Udo refered to previously.

I am using:

MS61 1897 ZAR Shilling NGC ( Yes, I had one graded the same grade by PCGS so it'll be interesting to compare the two when I receive the latter )

MS62 Germany Ducat Bavaria 1813

MS63 1892 ZAR Penny BN

MS64 1805 Portugal 1/2 E

It's an interesting guide imo - well better get back to learning.

SYRACUSIAN

Udo, with all due respect, cracking out a 63 because it looked overgraded to you is an unforgivable crime. No joke now.


Must start saving and will play Lotto this weekend.


Try betting on Germany winning the World Cup, and remember who gave you the idea when you will collect.

Udo

Dimitri, I didn't crack it out because I thought it was overgraded or undergraded, one could say that I crack slabs gernerally.
I don't think that I hate slabs, I like them because they give me a certain security when it comes to buying sight unseen. But
I just don't like storing the plastic, so I free the coins.
However, if I had intended to resell the coin, perhaps I had kept the plastic in good order, but it'll stay in my collection.