Business model for 4SC?

CDsNuts

Just curious, but could somebody illuminate me on the business model of 4 Sharp Corners? It seems they bust an unbelievable amount of vintage product, submit to PSA then sale. We all know this is generally a losing proposition, so what exactly are they getting out of it? I'm not trying to knock them or how they do business, I'm just curious as to their strategies.

Lee

baseballfanatic

I've wondered the same thing myself, but if you were able to accumulate what used to be known as "junk wax", and bust it and submit (at quite a reduced rate) and rely on the set registry to garner some astronomical prices for some common cards which have a low pop because only 20 of each card have been submitted, you could make some pretty good money for a couple of years. If you want to continue this practice, the profits will slowly decline because you need to pay a higher price to acquire product to bust, the low number pops continue to rise in number, so you start to maintain your profit by gouging on shipping. You can probably still turn a profit, but it would have to be declining yearly.........

mikeschmidt

They buy in bulk - so they get some unbelievably good deals. And their business model caters to certain set collectors and player collectors - from whom they extract *significant* profits when they hit cards in 9/10-

m

itzagoner

My guess is that 4SC, as well as DSL, are functioning by the benefit of either good planning or just plain ol' foresight. If these guys were dealing or just simply buying stuff year after year, it would be safe to assume that they were acquiring their unopened goods thru the wholesale market. Combine that with the prices that likely existed at the time purchases were made and you have a recipe for huge profits!! Add to that the fact that their constant exposure on the Internet has delivered to them a huge customer base and potential for consignment deals and you have a no-lose situation. When the volume of business becomes so enormous (DSL has like 2000 items up on eBay at any given time), you can't help but win!! To all the folks who thought the Sports Geeks were wasting their time accumulating this junk, THANKS FOR YOUR CARDS!!!!!

envoy98

mikeschmidt is correct. They just buy in bulk, I've spoken with several dealers that have sold sets and collections to them. In fact, one deal I spoke with a few weeks ago was in Chicago and sold them '57, '58 and '59 topps football sets with what he described were "NM or better" star and rc cards. Apparently the buyer from 4SC paid a very nice price for them and both were happy. Wish I had known he had the sets in the first place...<shrug>

storm888

I would guess that they are probably pretty good at
picking 9s and 10s out of their packs. They probably
are better at it than most folks who submit cards.

They ship quick and usually safe. The shipping costs
are NOT unreasonable, by market comparison.

I know that a primary complaint is their refusal to
combine shipping across IDs. Frankly, I do not know
how they could do that; the "confusion" would
overwhelm them. I probably sell 1/1000 of 1% of what
they do, and I have a hard time making sure the
right cards go to the right folks. Juggling between
several IDs would be impossible, unless they hired
someone to do "only that." eBay certainly does not
have a solution that I am aware of in their software
products.

The only reason I quit buying from them had to do
with their "private-insurance" scheme and their failure
to get signature confirmation on items over $100.00.
One of my packages from them was stolen/misdelivered,
but the Delivery Confirmation said it had been "delivered."
The package was JUST under the PayPal $250.00 limit,
(signature required) so there was no recourse available
through PayPal.

4SC "lulled" me into thinking they would file a claim on their
insurance, but never did; and, the deadlines to leave fb
and "complain to eBay" came and went. So, I NEVER
gave 4SC any more of my money. (I never told this story
"publicly" before.)

I still think they are a pretty good vendor for modern
set-builders.

storm

mikeschmidt

I've heard stories of Darrel [from DSL] buying so much in bulk -- and he basically throws away 98% of it. Not worth the time, shipping, OH, etc. for most of the 'bulk' that he buys. He makes his margins on the good stuff, and doesn't waste his time with the rest.

SDavid

They just buy in bulk, I've spoken with several dealers that have sold sets and collections to them.

I've always wondered how much of their modern cards (say post '75) came from sets instead of wax. Sets would obviously be cheaper, and even I've been able to find several high grade key cards in raw sets that would otherwise be expensive to acquire through unopened.

Also, keep in mind that they sell "unopened" material under the id newenglandsportscards (see other threads), so you have to factor that into the business model as well.

bri2327

<< <i>I would guess that they are probably pretty good at
picking 9s and 10s out of their packs. They probably
are better at it than most folks who submit cards.

They ship quick and usually safe. The shipping costs
are NOT unreasonable, by market comparison.

I know that a primary complaint is their refusal to
combine shipping across IDs. Frankly, I do not know
how they could do that; the "confusion" would
overwhelm them. I probably sell 1/1000 of 1% of what
they do, and I have a hard time making sure the
right cards go to the right folks. Juggling between
several IDs would be impossible, unless they hired
someone to do "only that." eBay certainly does not
have a solution that I am aware of in their software
products.

The only reason I quit buying from them had to do
with their "private-insurance" scheme and their failure
to get signature confirmation on items over $100.00.
One of my packages from them was stolen/misdelivered,
but the Delivery Confirmation said it had been "delivered."
The package was JUST under the PayPal $250.00 limit,
(signature required) so there was no recourse available
through PayPal.

4SC "lulled" me into thinking they would file a claim on their
insurance, but never did; and, the deadlines to leave fb
and "complain to eBay" came and went. So, I NEVER
gave 4SC any more of my money. (I never told this story
"publicly" before.)

I still think they are a pretty good vendor for modern
set-builders.

storm >>




How can it be so confusing when you make payments to ALL their ID's through the exact same payment address on paypal ? If I won 5 cards from 4SC, 5 from 4SC-2, 5 from 4 SC baseball, and paid for all 15 at the same time the payment on paypal goes to the exact same address. Wouldnt that be relatively simple to combine at that point ? To me it would be more confusing to get a payment for 15 cards from someone and have to write out 3 different invoices, pack 3 seperate boxes, print 3 seperate labels, etc etc. In the end it is just an excuse to get more profit from shipping costs.

storm888

"How can it be so confusing when you make payments to ALL their ID's through the exact same payment address on paypal ? If I won 5 cards from 4SC, 5 from 4SC-2, 5 from 4 SC baseball, and paid for all 15 at the same time the payment on paypal goes to the exact same address. Wouldnt that be relatively simple to combine at that point ? To me it would be more confusing to get a payment for 15 cards from someone and have to write out 3 different invoices, pack 3 seperate boxes, print 3 seperate labels, etc etc. In the end it is just an excuse to get more profit from shipping costs. "

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you use the eBay checkout, the items will be on three
different "receipts" when they go to each of the three IDs.

4SC would need a software solution to "join/match" the
PayPal tickets with the cross-ID invoices. Or, a live person
could do it; it would probably be a full-time job for one person.

I do NOT know this, but there may be "tax reasons" that the
IDs are not joined. Also, each ID could have a separate set
of "investors" financing the operations.

eBay/PayPal are "the same company." Their paperwork
is not "combined."

The 4SC shipping rates are NOT excessive, compared
to the market comparables. They pack the stuff in expensive
boxes/bubbles, and they insure and use Delivery Confirmation.
You can also wait until you have several days worth of purchases
b4 you pay.

I do agree that, in as much as it is a continuing source of controversy,
it would be a good thing if 4SC "explained" the real reasons that the
combined-shipping concept is "not feasible" for them.

That all said, I really do not care if they make some money on shipping.
That money is "factored-in" to the amount they need to make in order to
stay in business. If that source of money was not there, they would
make it up by raising prices. In either case, the BUYER's pay the bill.

Obviously, I am not defending them, (after my "experience" with them)
but the facts are what they are.


storm

NathanSr

They can make it less confusing by only using ONE friggin ebay account for all sales transactions. But then they could not gouge.

NathanSr

ctsoxfan

<< <i>They can make it less confusing by only using ONE friggin ebay account for all sales transactions. But then they could not gouge.

NathanSr >>



Yes, exactly. Why make excuses for them? DSL has one ID, and they combine shipping for whatever you buy within a reasonable time frame, and probably sells the same volume as 4SC (no PayPal, though, which is inconvenient). The decision to spilt up baseball, football, whatever - isn't our problem as customers. It would be wise of them to see the big picture, and encourage customers to buy more by combining shipping, but they obviously are relying on the shipping profits to a certain extent - hence the numerous ID's.

I have heard and seen much the same thing already mentioned about how they get their cards to grade. I also imagine they pay a lot less in grading fees than we do, with their volume discount. As long as they find a few hits in every set / batch of cards, I am sure it works out for them.

lostdart58

I had problem with a lost package from 4SC.............they gave me the runaround on their "insurance" saying a claim would take a few weeks ;I hadn't gotten the package after a month...................after 7 weeks and just when I was to lower the boom, the package arrived. the USPS website said it was shipped when they said.............




Someone wrote here that they can only do what they do for a few years.......but I do not agree.......as the years go by cards from 79-81 will get more valuable and they can sell those for profit...........etc etc...........even the glut year of mid 80's on will show some increase in value........sometime down the road..........

Boopotts

<< <i>

<< <i>They can make it less confusing by only using ONE friggin ebay account for all sales transactions. But then they could not gouge.

NathanSr >>



Yes, exactly. Why make excuses for them? DSL has one ID, and they combine shipping for whatever you buy within a reasonable time frame, and probably sells the same volume as 4SC (no PayPal, though, which is inconvenient). The decision to spilt up baseball, football, whatever - isn't our problem as customers. It would be wise of them to see the big picture, and encourage customers to buy more by combining shipping, but they obviously are relying on the shipping profits to a certain extent - hence the numerous ID's.

I have heard and seen much the same thing already mentioned about how they get their cards to grade. I also imagine they pay a lot less in grading fees than we do, with their volume discount. As long as they find a few hits in every set / batch of cards, I am sure it works out for them. >>



It may work out for them now, but I can't see a scenerio where this is a sustainable business model unless we see a sharp increase in demand for graded cards. And so far, at least, we haven't seen that. It's at the point now where PSA 10's from the 1980's for HOF'ers can frequently be picked up for $15 or less, which does not bode well for the 'semi modern' card market. Also, they face the same problem that every card dealer has had to contend with since the advent of Ebay; namely, that their competitors are fequently parties who just don't have any kind of real profit motive. For example, we have guys on this board who will break a rack case of '83 Topps, pay $600 in grading fees to have the high end cards graded, and will just shrug it off if the end up losing $200 by the time the dust has settled. Why not? Breaking cases is fun, getting cards graded is fun, and like someone else on these boards once said, if you can get 8 or 9 hours of enjoyment out of a case for $200 you're really not doing all that bad.

Why has the price of, say, 1976 PSA 9's dropped down to $6 or so (or less)? Because people are still grading these cards, and the people who are getting them graded don't really care if they turn a profit in the bargain. They either use them in their own sets (which excludes another buyer from the market pool) or sell them for just at or slightly less than the grading fee (which undercuts 4SC). How can you compete with that? Can you imagine the boat BP or Chevron would be in if Exxon just started selling crude at cost, purely for the hell of it? These Ebay card giants have had a nice run, due largely to their ability to seize a significant share of a fairly new market (graded cards), but that ship is going to sink unless we some very significant changes in the market for their products.

Boopotts

<< <i>I had problem with a lost package from 4SC.............they gave me the runaround on their "insurance" saying a claim would take a few weeks ;I hadn't gotten the package after a month...................after 7 weeks and just when I was to lower the boom, the package arrived. the USPS website said it was shipped when they said.............




Someone wrote here that they can only do what they do for a few years.......but I do not agree.......as the years go by cards from 79-81 will get more valuable and they can sell those for profit...........etc etc...........even the glut year of mid 80's on will show some increase in value........sometime down the road.......... >>



That seems to me like purely speculatory thinking, since there's no evidence that I'm aware of (I could be missing something) which suggests that demand for these cards will increase substantially. Remember, the 'known supply' of high grade cards from this era continues to climb; either from guys busting packs or from old collections being brought into the market. So it's not that 4SC has to worry exclusively about DEMAND for these cards shifting outwards-- which is enough of a concern as it is, since demand for them has been fairly flat for as long as I can remember--they have to worry about demand shifting outwards by a large enough margin to compensate for the ever increasnig supply. That's a tall order for sets that have not, to date, shown any ability to significantly appreciate.