Looks Real...
royalbrett
Posts: 620 ✭✭✭
royalbrett
Posts: 620 ✭✭✭
royalbrett
Posts: 620 ✭✭✭
Comments
Lee
<< <i>At least he's being honest and not trying to slide it through as a legit card.
Lee >>
And promoting it as a "1 of 1" FAKE!!
The thing I hate is he has no regards for the people who are going to be scammed by this card on down the line. Someone will buy it and flip it as the real thing.
Such items should be illegal to own/sell.
This item WILL reappear as "genuine."
storm
You sure about that? What if you unknowingly own a fake card? Seems harsh!?
<< <i>Gross violation of VERY liberal eBay counterfeit-listing policies.
Such items should be illegal to own/sell.
This item WILL reappear as "genuine."
storm >>
If the market adjusts the selling price to account for the fact that an item might be fake there isn't any problem at all. Let's say you set up at a card show, and some guy comes up to you looking to sell an '86 Jordan. Further, let's say you really don't know a fake from the real McCoy. Do you buy it from him? The answer, of course, is 'sure I do--depending on the price'. Now this is a little different, since one's judgement as to the authenticity of the card will be skewed by the fact that it's in a PSA slab. But in general market dynamics account for the presence of counterfeits.
You sure about that? What if you unknowingly own a fake card? Seems harsh!?
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Yes, I am pretty sure. Harsh? Yes, but..........
It is not as harsh as poisoning the collectible's well with counterfeit items that
can be easily passed off as "real."
There are many things that are "illegal to own." In some instances, "intent" is not
an element that must be proven in the prosecution of such cases; the mere
"having of the thing" is enough to meet the burden.
Making possession of counterfeit items illegal would not stop the bad practices,
but it would reduce them to some degree. I am not against all "replicas," but they
really need to be OBVIOUS "replicas" in order to be "marginally acceptable."
In the subject auction, the PSA holder - a proprietary item - is being used in
a manner that invites and induces fraud. Even eBay's own policy says that such
"replicas" have to be "permanently marked" if they are to be listed. The subject
listing does not meet the requirements of that policy.
If you get a "bad card," there is legal recourse. That recourse does not extend to
passing it on - with or without a mere "listing disclaimer" - so that it can/will be
reused to defraud someone else.
storm
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
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Yup.
Market dynamics account for the crack epidemic, the ice/meth epidemic, and
MANY other "social ills."
The PRIMARY reason to buy an unmarked "fake" is to pass it off as "real."
storm
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I am not opposed to that idea. But, whoever has their name attached to such
a purchase, might be viewed with "suspicion" by other sellers/buyers.
Still, not a terrible idea.
Maybe another option is to buy it, give it to PSA, and see if PSA can/will track the
holder backwards and bust the bum that has misused their product.
storm
<< <i>"But, in general, market dynamics account for the presence of counterfeits. "
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Yup.
Market dynamics account for the crack epidemic, the ice/meth epidemic, and
MANY other "social ills."
The PRIMARY reason to buy an unmarked "fake" is to pass it off as "real."
storm >>
The point is that market clearing prices will reflect the degree of uncertainty surrounding the authenticity of the collectible. I don't see how the authenticity of crack cocaine fits in to the equation....
uncertainty surrounding the authenticity of the collectible. I don't
see how the authenticity of crack cocaine fits in to the equation.... "
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The "degree of uncertainty" is bad for the "value" of ALL collectibles.
I wish that ALL people would accept that "some collectibles are fake, and
some are real," BUT they do not. Everytime "authenticty" is the subject,
new and/or less-experienced collectors become overwhelmed with their
learning curve and STOP collecting/buying. That is very bad for people who
have already invested in any collectible hobby.
"Authenticity" of crack was not the point; the effect of "market dynamics"
was.
storm
<< <i>If the market adjusts the selling price to account for the fact that an item might be fake there isn't any problem at all. Let's say you set up at a card show, and some guy comes up to you looking to sell an '86 Jordan. Further, let's say you really don't know a fake from the real McCoy. Do you buy it from him? The answer, of course, is 'sure I do--depending on the price'. Now this is a little different, since one's judgement as to the authenticity of the card will be skewed by the fact that it's in a PSA slab. But in general market dynamics account for the presence of counterfeits. >>
Boo, based on previous posts that ive read from you, you seem to be a staunch supporter (or at least someone who knows his basic economics) of free market economics. but, i have to disagree with you on your above point. In a market where there are no such things as graded cards, your point is almost true (if you want me to elaborate on why i say "almost," let me know. otherwise, it's a completely different topic). but, the auction is selling a PSA GRADED card, where authenticity is guaranteed (at least to novice-average collectors...some more experienced collector, especially after the WIWAG thing AND the whole bobby hull rookie card swap, are a little more suspicious and careful). So, in this scenario, the market will not reflect prices to account for the possbility of counterfeits because the whole point of grading, or at least one of its main benefits, is to assure the collector that the card is at the very least authentic. So, a collector will buy this card according to the market price of a graded, authentic PSA 4 bill russell rookie. in graded cards, the market reflects over and undergrading, but hardly counterfeits.
ungraded (raw) cards reflect, for the most part, the possiblity of counterfeits. but graded cards (GAI, PSA, SGC, BVG) don't.
<< <i>
<< <i>If the market adjusts the selling price to account for the fact that an item might be fake there isn't any problem at all. Let's say you set up at a card show, and some guy comes up to you looking to sell an '86 Jordan. Further, let's say you really don't know a fake from the real McCoy. Do you buy it from him? The answer, of course, is 'sure I do--depending on the price'. Now this is a little different, since one's judgement as to the authenticity of the card will be skewed by the fact that it's in a PSA slab. But in general market dynamics account for the presence of counterfeits. >>
Boo, based on previous posts that ive read from you, you seem to be a staunch supporter (or at least someone who knows his basic economics) of free market economics. but, i have to disagree with you on your above point. In a market where there are no such things as graded cards, your point is almost true (if you want me to elaborate on why i say "almost," let me know. otherwise, it's a completely different topic). but, the auction is selling a PSA GRADED card, where authenticity is guaranteed (at least to novice-average collectors...some more experienced collector, especially after the WIWAG thing AND the whole bobby hull rookie card swap, are a little more suspicious and careful). So, in this scenario, the market will not reflect prices to account for the possbility of counterfeits because the whole point of grading, or at least one of its main benefits, is to assure the collector that the card is at the very least authentic. So, a collector will buy this card according to the market price of a graded, authentic PSA 4 bill russell rookie. in graded cards, the market reflects over and undergrading, but hardly counterfeits.
ungraded (raw) cards reflect, for the most part, the possiblity of counterfeits. but graded cards (GAI, PSA, SGC, BVG) don't. >>
I agree, which is why in the post above I said "Now this is a little different, since one's judgement as to the authenticity of the card will be skewed by the fact that it's in a PSA slab."
One interesting point is that so long as there are going to be more than one counterfeit cards of a given issue floating around it may be better if there are an abundance of them as opposed to just a few.
and it had gone "poof."
storm
<< <i>One interesting point is that so long as there are going to be more than one counterfeit cards of a given issue floating around it may be better if there are an abundance of them as opposed to just a few. >>
not entirely getting your point, but with grading, does it matter? theoretically, grading stabalizes the market given that authenticity is guaranteed. A lot of counterfeits bring more awareness of the possiblity of being scammed. Therefore, the market will react to this by reducing overall prices given the uncertainty. but grading pretty much guarantees authenticity (at least that's the common and accepted perception). it doesnt matter how many counterfeits are in the market as long as grading exists...because it weeds out the counterfeits and prices are now based on graded cards.
in the case of raw cards, your point is true. but who, besides non risk averse collectors, buys raw cards?
-- Yogi Berra
Raw Jordan RC's are a perfect example- anytime you (as an educated collector) see one you automatically believe it's a counterfeit, thus the price compared to a graded copy are exponentially less. In the event of a fluke happening and somebody listing a real raw Jordan that's Mint on ebay, the buyer's going to get it for next to nothing because the market has adjusted for the fact that it's most likely a counterfeit, but there's a small chance it's not.
And Boo, if you have some crack you think might be fake, I have a fool-proof method of finding out whether it is or not.
Lee
Edited to say that whether good or bad for the market, counterfeits exist. It doens't make any difference how we feel about it. I hate when the Yankees win, but that doesn't stop them from winning.
<< <i>lee...i get what boo says. i just disagree with it because were in a market where most collectors buy graded (or are buying with the intention of grading). grading eliminates, theoretically, the adjustments made for the possiblity of counterfeits because graded cards are supposed to be authentic. thus, we cant simply dismiss this auction (which is for a psa 4 bill russell rookie) because a countefeit card in a psa slab will be bought at fair market value. >>
Hi Major-
I agree with you, which is why I said that this auction-- which is a counterfeit Bill Russell RC masquarading as a 100% legitimate card--isn't a good application for what I'm trying to say.
Somebody said that all counterfeit cards should be burned. Well, OK-- I can get behind that. They don't add anything to the hobby, and they certainly can harm it, so there's no point in having them around. But saying something like that is akin to saying 'I think we should track down all the child molestors and lock them up'. Everyone agrees with that, but of course it just isn't feasible. And my larger point-- which I think has been lost in here somewhere, and I have no doubt that I'm more than partially to blame for that-- is that counterfeits aren't as big of a deal as people make them out to be because, as Lee said, the market adjusts for their presence.
<< <i> is that counterfeits aren't as big of a deal as people make them out to be because, as Lee said, the market adjusts for their presence. >>
great! we agree. so, now lets make love.
caveat: counterfeits are more of a presence in pre war cards. grading is predominant in the prewar market, but less so than it is in the post war (mainly because older collectors have not exactly caught onto grading). therefore, counterfeits still are a concern. of course, less so than before.
Lee
<< <i>I honestly can't believe that there's no one with the technology out there that can perfectly reproduce a certain card or cards if they could find the correct paper stock. I'm talking perfect to the point where they get past graders. What a scary thought.
Lee >>
This is one of those things I often ruminate upon in my idle hours. You have to think it's coming, which is one of the reasons (actually the only reason) why I think at some point there's going to be a premium on 'older' PSA slabs. Who knows? Maybe it's already happening now. If the graders can't detect it then most of us sure a hell wouldn't be able to detect it, which means there could be some guy churning out Jordan and Gretzky RC's as we speak that are finding their way into legitimate holders.
Lee
<< <i>I honestly can't believe that there's no one with the technology out there that can perfectly reproduce a certain card or cards if they could find the correct paper stock. I'm talking perfect to the point where they get past graders. What a scary thought.
Lee >>
I remember pondering this same senerio quite awhile back. Imagine a clever guy churning out a modest amount of 1952 Topps cards that are just splendid looking. I hear that you can't reproduce the way the cards were cut, you can't accurately reproduce or find the paper stock, etc, etc, etc. Well, it can't be any tougher then reproducing MONEY over the years. The feds are all over changing the way bills are made constantly. Because it is possible and inevitable.
There is no way to change the way a 52 Topps card WAS made to stay ahead of the curve. Because there is no curve on a product that was produced the way they "are" just once and once only.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
-- Yogi Berra
CARD RING SMASHED: The first phase of the four-year-old "Operation Bullpen" investigation into fraud in the sports memorabilia marketplace concluded last week with an announcement by the FBI that a half-dozen individuals have pled guilty in connection with a counterfeiting ring that reproduced thousands of some of the most famous baseball cards in the hobby.
While previous indictments from Operation Bullpen had centered on the creation of fraudulent memorabilia and faked autographs, the latest charges involved the counterfeiting of Topps and Leaf cards that the FBI called "nearly undetectable duplicates."
The joint announcement in San Diego by U.S. Attorney Gregory Vega, FBI Special Agent-in-Charge William Gore and Internal Revenue Service Special Agent-in-Charge Denise Rubin detailed that the counterfeiting operation began when Henry "Hank" Benner of El Segundo, Calif., convinced Vincent Ferruccio of Pasadena to utilize his printing business (Ferruccio and Associates) in Gardena to counterfeit Topps cards.
According to the Justice Department, Benner provided Ferruccio with genuine original rookie cards to use as "templates" for the counterfeits, and additionally purchased the card stock necessary to produce the cards — 2,000 uncut sheets consisting of 36 counterfeit cards, including the Topps rookie cards of Mark McGwire (1985), Tony Gwynn (1983), Dan Marino and John Elway (both 1984).
The cards were distributed to a number of wholesalers by, among others, Jeff Bassman (utilizing his business, Bassman Collectibles), Barry Goldberg (Vintage Collectibles) and Richard Laughlin (Framed Images).
Bassman, Benner, Ferruccio, Goldberg, Laughlin and Wayne Alan Bray of San Marcos, Calif., each pled guilty to conspiracy to defraud, which carries a maximum penalty of five years and a $250,000 fine per count, and additionally, Bray entered a guilty plea to tax evasion, which carries the same potential penalties. Sentencing is expected over the coming months.
FBI Special Agent Tim Fitzsimmons took pains to emphasize that the two-year investigation into baseball card counterfeiting represents something of a departure from the broader Operation Bullpen efforts. " When we began looking into the memorabilia question, we found an industry with serious problems," Fitzsimmons said. "(The card industry) is just the opposite: a very clean industry."
The FBI seized an estimated 50,000 counterfeit cards in the investigation that began in late 1998. "What's important is that we were able to dismantle this ring in the early stages," U.S. Attorney Phil Halpern said.
Only five cards were actually counterfeited. In addition to the four Topps rookie cards mentioned above, the counterfeiters were in the process of working on producing a 1990 Leaf Sammy Sosa card. The FBI estimates 70,000 to 100,000 of the counterfeit cards were produced, only 50,000 of which were seized.
"Probably 10,000 would be a more accurate number," added Halpern in reference to the likely number of counterfeit cards that might have made their way to the public. "We don't want to cause undue worry in the marketplace, but things did get out." The FBI reported that all of the fake 1990 Sosa cards were recovered.
Lee