How sure should a grader be that toning is natural before slabbing it?

ziggy29

Mark's question about how to handle a coin where you are 50/50 about whether or not the toning is legit got me to thinking. If you're a grader, how sure do you think you would have to be about a coin being "NT" before slabbing it?

Shamika

If there's ANY doubt, I would hope the grader would reject the coin! This is the approach I take when buying coins and I would want TPG's to do the same. Any coin that is slabbed should be a "no question" NT coin.

JRocco

I think I asked a valid question that as of now hasn't been answered yet in that thread. I will ask it again and even if not answered, it should make one think (I always like that )

Suppose a coin is sent in for a re-grade. During that coins review, the grader thinks to him/herself that the coin may have a 50/50 or whatever percent chance that it is AT vs. NT---- How often in this situation do you think the grader would have the integrity to stand on those same principles he would have on a regular grading and choose to bag the coin- in this situation that would involve costing his company some money?
Would most PCGS or NGC graders have that integrity?

Shamika

<< <i>Would most PCGS or NGC graders have that integrity? >>


I sure hope so. Integrity is easily lost and hard to regain.

mcheath

95% or above

fc

i want to say 66% sure. in other words, they BB more
then they slab, hopefully.

doh. i read your poll as 60% the first time. i should have voted
65%.

PerryHall

<< <i>95% or above >>

RedTiger

My glib but honest answer in another thread is that it depends on how many toners are being sent in. The graders first obligation is to the company, and maximizing the company's profits. Grading is secondary. To maximize the company's profits it is imperative to control the supply and let a percentage of ATs through so more will be sent in, but not enough to flood the market and send values spiraling down.

More and more toners are showing up for sale, so the conclusion for this casual observer is that they are being made today. Top dealers are being fooled (or want to be fooled). What chance does a grader have in 10 seconds? What chance does the average collector have?

What obligation does the grader have if the grade assigned is for a low dollar amount, say a common MS64 Morgan or Peace dollar? However, the toning looks spectacular and will make it equivalent in value to a MS66 coin? In the current environment, I say the bulk of the responsibility is on the buyer of the toners. Sad, but the graders work for companies, not public interest entities. Companies are in business to make money, and that is their first and primary obligation.

MrSpud

I voted other. I think there should be some kind of statement like "Undetermined Originality" for coins that either look like they might have been cleaned (but not abrasively cleaned) and also when graders aren't sure whether or not toning is natural.

I say this for the toned ones because, although BBing all possible AT might make it harder for lesser Doctors, it will also put a lot of NT coins into the same category (i.e. the coins will get BBed even though they are actually legit just because a Doctor has been successful in copying their look). I worry that this will cause more people to Doctor NT coins unnecessarily by dipping them so as to avoid the BB.

I also worry that if Graders toughen their standards then the Doctors will be motivated to develop new techniques that will fool the graders (i.e. they may make some coins look just like ones that the graders are sure are NT). Then, if the Doctors ever get found out (like if the ATd slabbed coin keeps darkening unnaturally in the slab) then all NT coins will fall into the "unsure" category and nothing but Blast White coins will be slabbable.

I also do think it is possible to develop AT techniques that match the look of all NT coins. I say this because none of these NT coins are formed in nature or took millions of years to form. All coins are man made and all toning involves combinations of chemistry and environment that most likely can be accelerated. It might not be able to be done in 10 minutes in an oven, or repeatedly every time, but I think it can be done. I wonder what can be done to a coin that has just begun to develop a light natural toning with all of the usual natural characteristics. A lightly naturally toned coin might be able to be accelerated into a monster AT coin that has all the characteristics of NT.

PerryHall

<< <i>The graders first obligation is to the company, and maximizing the company's profits. Grading is secondary. >>



Sounds like the formula to become a third tier grading company.

OKbustchaser

0 percent...No amount of sureness(?) should be required. A toned coin should be treated exactly the same way an untoned one is...ie, the grader asks himself "Would this coin sell in the open market, and if so, at what price level?". If his determination is yes, then slap on the corresponding grade and move on to the next coin.

If the formula works for dipped out, totally lifeless, obviously unnatural white coins then the same formula should work for attractive, eye-catching, but unnaturally toned ones.