Getting tired of these mysteries. 1878 8 TF Morgan...

RVDavis

I bought this coin at the Jacksonville, FL coin show today. For htose forum members in the area, this is a great show. Despite the rants about dealers at shows (my own included), every single dealer there was friendly and allowed me to go through the Morgans. Not one dealer cared about VAMs, which I found amazing. I bought this 8 TF at a ncie price. Here are the facts:

It is an I21 obverse, VAM 1. Every single diagnostic in all of my references are matched. The problem is the reverse.

The revers shows engraved feathers between the eagle's wings and legs, as expected if this coin is VAM 1. What is not exepcted is the very strong doubling of UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, the wreath especially the right wreath (observer's right) and the strong doubling of the eagle's right wing from top to bottom. this is not the A1a reverse.

Here is the question: Is there an 1878 die pair with the I21 obverse, and another reverse? Here are some photos of the reverse.

Looks like the added feathers of A1a, but not the same.



Doubled STATES



Doubled wing

VamCollector

Looks like the A1a reverse to me. There was thought at one time the Vam-13 existed with the I21 obverse (shared with the Vam-1) matched with the 14-4 reverse, the A1i. Supposedly one of the experts quite awhile ago had seen this coin but as far as I know it has never been verified by anyone else. Jeff Oxman doesn't list the Vam-13 in his 8TF attribution guide. Not sure if it is still listed in newer editions of the big Vam book.

DennisH

Just a thought -- Could the doubling be strike doubling?

Wolf359

<< <i>Looks like the A1a reverse to me. There was thought at one time the Vam-13 existed with the I21 obverse (shared with the Vam-1) matched with the 14-4 reverse, the A1i. Supposedly one of the experts quite awhile ago had seen this coin but as far as I know it has never been verified by anyone else. Jeff Oxman doesn't list the Vam-13 in his 8TF attribution guide. Not sure if it is still listed in newer editions of the big Vam book. >>

RVDavis

Thanks for the information, especially the confirmation of what I see on the added feathers. The doubling is strong enough that it should be mentioned, as it is on other reverses. Norm, it does not look at all like strike doubling to me. I am looking htrough the references to try and find a reverse that matches this coin. This certainly looks like an A1i reverse on all of the devices except the added feathers. I will keep looking.

RVDavis

LOL Looks like a VAM 13 to me. Wonder how many labels are running around like that? My 4th edition of the book shows a VAM 13.

RVDavis

TT for Sunday morning, any ideas? This one has me scratching my head.

jdsinva

The reverse matches the image for A1a in my 8TF guide, making it a v1. The big VAM book is nice to have but it's also quite a bit out of date.

RVDavis

Jeff:

I was initially in agreement, that this is an ordinary VAM1. The features on the reverse has changed that opinion. I have all of the updates to the book, as well as a number of websites offer attribution information. I just don't believe Leroy would have failed to mention doubling on the legend, the wreath, the reverse stars and the right wing in the description of VAM 1. Maybe he did so, who knows? The 8 TF attribution guide shows engraved feathers matching my coin for VAM 1, I agree with that. The rest of the reverse is different form the research materials describe.

Rick

Bryan1315

Here is what the "1878 Morgan Dollar 8-TF Attribution Guide" 3rd Edition by Jeff Oxman and Les Hartnett says about the A1 reverse on the VAM1

"The VAM-1 Reverse can be identified by a number of features, most notably the engraved extra feathers that have been added at the junction of the eagle's lower left wing and body (on the viewer's right). There, the inside feather tip is formed in the shape of an "spear point". There is strong doubling at the top inside of DOLLAR, and to a lesser extent on the right star, as well as on AMERICA and UNITED. The outside edges of the right wreath, the left wreath and the area around the ribbon bow are also doubled. Lastly, a large portion of the eagle's left wing (viewer's right) has been over-polished."

So the only thing that looks different to me is the doubling around the wing. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems everything else is described

coindeuce

RV, your VAM 1 has the most ordinary features of strike doubling that don't occur with great frequency in the series however. Nothing to get too focused on.
Leroy most likely had not seen a strike doubled example of most of the coins that he compared and analyzed for cataloging, and I doubt that he would have felt it necessary to include additional information regarding strike doubling relative to this particular VAM.
One of the very best tutorials that I have found and continue to recommend regarding strike doubling is found in Fivaz/Stanton "The Cherrypickers Guide". A full chapter with great photographs comparing the differences between die doubling and strike doubling are very helpful to gaining a greater understanding of these processes.

RVDavis

<< <i>Here is what the "1878 Morgan Dollar 8-TF Attribution Guide" 3rd Edition by Jeff Oxman and Les Hartnett says about the A1 reverse on the VAM1

"The VAM-1 Reverse can be identified by a number of features, most notably the engraved extra feathers that have been added at the junction of the eagle's lower left wing and body (on the viewer's right). There, the inside feather tip is formed in the shape of an "spear point". There is strong doubling at the top inside of DOLLAR, and to a lesser extent on the right star, as well as on AMERICA and UNITED. The outside edges of the right wreath, the left wreath and the area around the ribbon bow are also doubled. Lastly, a large portion of the eagle's left wing (viewer's right) has been over-polished."

So the only thing that looks different to me is the doubling around the wing. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems everything else is described >>



Thanks for the information, I do not have the 3rd edition guide.

RVDavis

<< <i>RV, your VAM 1 has the most ordinary features of strike doubling that don't occur with great frequency in the series however. Nothing to get too focused on.
Leroy most likely had not seen a strike doubled example of most of the coins that he compared and analyzed for cataloging, and I doubt that he would have felt it necessary to include additional information regarding strike doubling relative to this particular VAM. >>



I am nto losing any sleep over this, just a mystery. Strike doubling is probably not the cause, as the various features of strike doubling are not present in this coin. Thanks for the input.

coindeuce

Since there is some doubt in your mind, why not email your images directly to Leroy. You can email him at vams@bright.net.

messydesk

From where I sit, looks like a strike doubled VAM 1. I only have 5 pictures of the reverse in the 8TF Attribution Wizard, and they're all of the lower reverse.

RVDavis

<< <i>Since there is some doubt in your mind, why not email your images directly to Leroy. You can email him at vams@bright.net. >>



I may do that today.