Vintage Packs
incugator
Posts: 622
Are they a good investment? Does anybody have any that they are looking to sell? I have heard that the gum can actually rot most of the cards in the packs. Can anybody tell me a little more about packs from '57-'65. I'd like to buy an open a pack but I don't know if it is a good idea. Let me know what you know.
-Ryan
0
Comments
The advice about graded/nice vintage cards is a great answer. Nice hall of famer vintage is probably a best bet.
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
<< <i>I have opened Baseball wax from 1959, 1960, 1961 and 1962 Topps, and Football cello from 1960 Topps and 1964 Philly. The gum is indeed rotted in these packs and generally ruins the adjacent card. Generally my results have been disappointing. I wound up with mostly common cards and the centering was a problem with many of them. My philosophy is that it's OK to open vintage packs for fun [expensive], but I would not advise it for investment purposes. >>
agreed! I would NOT open vintage packs with any real hopes of financial gain but if the money is not a issue I say RIP AWAY! Its alot better addiction to blow your expendable money on then spending it on BLOW
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I would love to buy unopened packs from the 50's and 60's and take a shot with them. I wouldn't mind if I "struck out" and didn't pull out anything worthwhile, but it would really bug the crap out of me if it was apparent that the pack had been tampered with. There simply has been way too many negative stories about GAI slabbed packs to make me want to spend my hard earned money on a probable sham.
Steve
graded packs dont even reflect condition of cards, they reflect condition of the friggin wrapper right?
perhaps too much of a compromise in current perceived value of psa versus risk of putting their names on graded material, since market and grading are so speculative?
julen
RIP GURU
Vintage packs are for buying and selling (investment).
All of the allure and value of the pack is in the mystique of the item being left unopened.
Anyone who purchased 52T packs in the grand range from reputable sellers like Mark Murphy did really well.
The "find" of 8 pack cellos of 52T packs yielded the prettiest packs on the planet IMO.
mike
Legit or not I love buying their 8s and cracking them. About 65% of the cards I have done this to have come back from PSA as a 9, one came back a 10 from PSA. 2 came back less and the rest were the same grade.
<< <i>IF a pack is graded 6 does that mean that the cards will mostly be ex-mt. >>
No. Grading is strictly based on pack condition. I mean how do they know what condition the cards will be inside the pack without opening it??
<< <i>
<< <i>IF a pack is graded 6 does that mean that the cards will mostly be ex-mt. >>
No. Grading is strictly based on pack condition. I mean how do they know what condition the cards will be inside the pack without opening it?? >>
Are there any great deals on 70's sports vintage packs how about late 60's?
<< <i>baseball '83 is my best suggestion. 3 HOFers rookie cards along with the uggliest guy in MLB history Willie McGee who has a big Cardinal and Giants following. 2nd year Ripken contains value. '81's are the value picks. >>
Back around 1992 if memory serves, 83T was going for around 250$/box and the "Michigan test" packs for a bit more.
You are lucky to get half that today - BBCEx will give you a Michigan test box for $140.
I'm not sure how much the ship has sailed on vintage packs since I don't collect them as such.
But, I did buy a full box of 76OPC back in 93 for about 700$ - that's 48 packs - I would say they are going about 30 a pack now - so I don't know if that kind of appreciation excites anyone.
The 52T pack has done pretty good - around 1994 BBCKid - Murphy had some pristine packs from 8 pk cellos for around 1700$ - those would easily grade 8 or 9. The pack would easily go for 5-8 grand today?
Again, what kind of appreciation is one looking for.
That's all I got - there are some really good pack collectors on the boards who can add way more on this than myself.
General feeling? Anything later than the early 70s is a crapshoot, IMO, with respect to real appreciation.
mike
<< <i>Can't help you with football or basketball. >>
With all due respect, not with baseball either.
You just gave advice that someone invest in 83T baseball? IMO, that is a fun box to buy and open but for investment? From where I stand, not very good.
The early 80s baseball is flatter than Rachel Ray's chest!
mike
<< <i>What is your obsession with crushing every comment that I've made tonight. He asked me for a set from 1980-present. In my opinion that unopened packs from this time period will be the best investment. I don't dout that vintage packs are a better investment, but that wasn't the question. >>
I wasn't trying to "crush" your views.
I just believe in accuracy - if anyone asked me about the 80s - I would say - very risky - may not appreciate.
I like the 83T set and have bought vending to open - for fun.
I apologize if you think I'm being mean - not my intent.
And to be frank, you have brought this on yourself in presenting to people you don't know - "the deal of the century"
Nobody in they're right mind is gonna invest in a deal with a stranger - plus - how do you divide the lot?
Who gets the Mantle RC? Lottery?
Sounds like a great idea on paper but will not fly in the wind.
Again, I apologize if I have looked extra crass.
mike
I actually use a spreadsheet value system and each person picks the cards they want. It's a simple system, but simple things are for simple minds and you are far to intellegent for somebody like me.
<< <i>I've done it before. What I do is take in all the money. I rent out a football field. I grid the footbal field marked with the names each individual cards. Every person that has purchased a piece of the lot borrows a dog from the local humane society and whichever part of the grid the dog poops on, the guy wins that card. If 2 dogs poop on the same lot then we buy some live chickens from the local chicken coop and we put them in a small child's swimming pool the first chicken that finds its way out is the winner of the lot.
I actually use a spreadsheet value system and each person picks the cards they want. It's a simple system, but simple things are for simple minds and you are far to intellegent for somebody like me. >>
Thanx for the kind words.
But this is far from simple.
This thing has logistical nightmare written all over it.
Spreadsheet? You know nothing about me or some of the other collectors here - many of us meet at shows, correspond, talk to each other on the phone etc.
Heck, we have arguments over who's getting the last piece of pepperoni pizza!
So, your self deprecating, simple country bumkin approach isn't gonna get you far either.
I live in San Antonio, there's not turnip trucks, cotton fields or banana boats - myself like others here are just collectors looking to have a little fun and learn from each other.
The only thing I can learn from this experience is to keep my wits about myself and keep my eyes wide open. And mister, you have trouble written all over you.
Stone
<< <i>Stone193 thanks you have been very helpful. It seems that premium vintage (more expensive buy in) may be the right tactics for long term unopend pack investment. However will gum destroy or put in danger your long term assests. Also is 1986 (jordan)basketball considered an option or overpriced? >>
FRN
Not sure on the 86F.
My guess? That ship has sailed. I don't think the demand is what it used to be for Jordan and pretty much, those who want it, have it.
It's not like they were in short supply or anything.
Now, having said that - one of the most "wrote about" items on CU is investment.
People fall on all sides of the fence.
Me? I believe this stuff is fun to collect, if it goes up fine, if it goes down, fine. I still had my entertainment.
I promise, you can do way better with long term capital gain mutual funds e.g.
But what fun is that? Right?
Back to the 86F Bkb - not totally positive.
Now, I like talking directly to the "horse's mouth" - if you were to email Steve at BBCExchange, and ask him what he would recommend - it would be interesting to see what he says?
A lot of stuff has not done as well as people thought it would do - and I'm looking at close to a 20 yr. span of looking at this stuff.
mike
I started getting them graded by GAI when they opened their doors. For the most part that has been a positive experience. I had a few rejected from them for one reason or another, and opened those with mixed results, but have never opened any for fun. But, I am not a collector, simply in this as an investor. I have no desire to know what is inside.
I just smile when I see the comments and opinions here regarding vintage packs. The topic does not come up very often but when it does, the opinion is always the same. Lousy investment. Sorry guys, but I'm the one on the other side of the fence. Loving it.
As far as the first post "where to get them" . ..try my store. As always money back guarantee if not satisfied. Don't laugh at the prices, sales are not hard to come by. http://stores.ebay.com/BeanBalls-Best_
Great thread, I enjoy all reads, as usuall.
I have opened alot as well from the 60`s and 70`s and at this point it is tough to profit. It is all fun now. a few years ago there were definately profitable busts when a set was on fire and there wasn`t a large supply of graded. not the case for most years now.
<< <i> baseball '83 is my best suggestion. >>
How many of those do we get for 20K?
Not a great suggestion from someone looking for investors on the deal of the century.
<< <i>It's really a shame that there is not a legitimate company slabbing unopened vintage packs. GAI is NOT legitimate in my opinion.
Legit or not I love buying their 8s and cracking them. About 65% of the cards I have done this to have come back from PSA as a 9, one came back a 10 from PSA. 2 came back less and the rest were the same grade. >>
Let me clarify: I do have some "questions" regarding their individual card grading, which I won't get into here, but GAI individual card grading I don't believe is a sham. However I do feel their slabbing of unopened packs is a sham, a BIG sham, which has been noted in a number of threads regarding the "conflicts of interest" involved with their grader. There is no doubt that a few people out there have made themselves a small fortune on this sham, at the expense of many buyers of GAI slabbed unopened vintage packs in which the actual value of the product is often only a fraction of the buying price because the buyer is expecting a true unopened vintage pack but is actually too many times getting a pack that has been tampered with.
Steve
<< <i>However I do feel their slabbing of unopened packs is a sham, a BIG sham, which has been noted in a number of threads regarding the "conflicts of interest" involved with their grader. There is no doubt that a few people out there have made themselves a small fortune on this sham, at the expense of many buyers of GAI slabbed unopened vintage packs in which the actual value of the product is often only a fraction of the buying price because the buyer is expecting a true unopened vintage pack but is actually too many times getting a pack that has been tampered with.
>>
steve, have to disagree here. I do not know what was going on when rutter and the guy from dave and adams was grading but I do not think it is fair to say that paul wright and mark m were intentionally slabbing bad packs. as a collector of unopened material , I would buy a pack from mark m or steve hart sight unseen and not worry about the integrity of the pack, the grade of the pack may be a debate but the integrity , NO. that is what pack grading is , buying from a trusted dealer but on a larger scale. with grading , you can buy a pack from mark m or steve hart but have many times the supply or opportunities to find the pack that you want, not just what is in their inventory. it is impossible to have a pack grader who is not a dealer , psa is going down the same path with steve hart. reason is you would need to be a national #1 dealer to have the experience to authenticate packs and if you are at that point there is no way a grading company could pay you enough to give up your business.
The Sharks lose to the Oilers...(sigh)
That's just the way it is for me. Mind you I'm not complaining, I've just come to understand that's the way it is.
On the other hand, some people are extremely lucky. There has to be some kind of balance in the universe.
There are some people like that on this board (lucky with packs).
I had a roommate who, no matter what kind of trouble he got himself into, landed on his feet. The type of guy who would have caught Bonds' 715 ball as he was coming out of the bathroom. A guy who would buy one pack of cards and get a 1/1 card. When he was rooming with me he was "between jobs" working as a cable installer because it was "easy". One day he announced he wanted to work on Wall Street. A month later he's working for Goldman Sachs.
If you are the "lucky" type, I'd say by all means have some fun and go for it (vintage pack). If not, I'd take the advice to invest in solid vintage graded.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>
<< <i>However I do feel their slabbing of unopened packs is a sham, a BIG sham, which has been noted in a number of threads regarding the "conflicts of interest" involved with their grader. There is no doubt that a few people out there have made themselves a small fortune on this sham, at the expense of many buyers of GAI slabbed unopened vintage packs in which the actual value of the product is often only a fraction of the buying price because the buyer is expecting a true unopened vintage pack but is actually too many times getting a pack that has been tampered with.
>>
steve, have to disagree here. I do not know what was going on when rutter and the guy from dave and adams was grading but I do not think it is fair to say that paul wright and mark m were intentionally slabbing bad packs. as a collector of unopened material , I would buy a pack from mark m or steve hart sight unseen and not worry about the integrity of the pack, the grade of the pack may be a debate but the integrity , NO. that is what pack grading is , buying from a trusted dealer but on a larger scale. with grading , you can buy a pack from mark m or steve hart but have many times the supply or opportunities to find the pack that you want, not just what is in their inventory. it is impossible to have a pack grader who is not a dealer , psa is going down the same path with steve hart. reason is you would need to be a national #1 dealer to have the experience to authenticate packs and if you are at that point there is no way a grading company could pay you enough to give up your business. >>
Good points and of course prices in the marketplace usually don't remain "stupid" - despite those details you mentioned about the "other" graders, prices for GAI slabbed unopened vintage packs still remain high so there must have been some former legitimacy to these packs, otherwise their value wouldn't be nearly as much.
Wonder if there is a documented way of determining when and by whom the packs were slabbed? If not, I'm going to stand by my opinion of not wanting to take a too risky of a chance in buying one of their slabbed vintage packs to bust. Tough enough to get value out a genuine unopened vintage pack without having no chance at value whatsoever through a tampered with pack.
Steve
I would venture to say that there has never been a pack or cello intentionally slabbed that was a phoney. This is a public company, responsible to many, with checks and balalnces in place. That means nothing by itself, but when you have multiple graders, multiple opinions, and other graders checking your work, there would have to be several peolple looking the other way. This would have been exposed, and they would not be in business. After all, why put a buisness unit at risk for a $500 pack?
Now, that being said, I would also assume that the grade on a pack might be open for discussion. This is where in my opinion a conflict of interest comes into play. This conflict started with Mark Murphy and he solved the problem by getting out. My guess is that he could make more money selling product that he could grading it. But anyone grading their own stuff, is at risk. I have been told that this problem was solved several months ago, and the rumor kept alive by unimformed collectors.
Maybe someday PSA will get into the pack grading market. Then we can cross over stuff and have the two watch dog each other as they do now in the single card market. PSA where are you??
Enron, and there have been a significant number of cases before Enron of fraudulent practices by companies, certainly shows that any company is capable of fraud in some manner or even to a large degree. Your point here is understandable, but is a bit too "trusting" of companies in general.
As far as putting a business at risk for a $500 pack? - of course not. But what about 500 $500 packs? How about 1,000 $500 packs or more. Not only is this possible but in my opinion it is likely in the case of GAI.
Steve
<< <i>So, you believe that there is a company wide conspiracy to sell phoney packs? >>
You would have to use the CU search and follow the multiple threads regarding this from a number of months back, then you would have a clearer picture about my comments - I'm not going to rehash all that again here. Use the word "conspiracy" or whatever words you want - that's up to you. I already just stated what I thought of this by calling it a "sham" - that's my opinion and the word I used to describe this matter.
Steve
<< <i>RIDICULOUS. >>
Yep, same thing was said about those commenting early on about Enron. Believe whatever you want to believe.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>There might be some interesting Topps 80s investments....1982 Blackless, 1984 Encased, 1985 Minis, 1988 Cloth.....time will tell >>
Al
Good point - these are "special" entities - most, of course, are talking about the mainstream 80s issues.
Ya never know tho.
mike
<< <i>Personally, I like 1980 Topps football. I bought 15 racks recently from BBC exchange for circa $9/each shipped. There are a lot of HOFers and they are nice cards when centered. There aren't any HOF rookies in the set, but there are several star rc's including Phil Simms, Ottis Anderson and Clay Matthews to name a few. Plus you have a 5th year Payton, 2nd year Lofton and Newsome plus many other great cards.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg
There's lots of 80s stuff I like but that doesn't necessarily mean a good long term investment.
As I had said earlier - much of this stuff has depreciated since the 90s and, at best, is flat.
Investment? Hard call on any collectibles.
But, I would still buy something I like - some day you and a grandson, e.g., may open this stuff and have the time of the century!
This has been interesting.
mike