LB Report: Very VAM UN-Friendly...been awhile since a dealer refused to open his case for me :(

VamCollector

I actually was in a good mood this morning....off work for the day....light traffic on the 405N. Made it to the Convention Center in time to get in right at 10AM. Looked around for a bit and then saw 3 or 4 1878 8TFs on a tray in a dealers case. Walked up...said hello, and asked if I could look at the 8TFs. The dealer (I don't know if it was John Franklin from San Diego but it was his booth so I will assume it was him) asked me if I was into VAMs. First off, I don't lie about this because unless the dealer is an idiot he/she will figure out what I am doing anyway. I said that I was to which he replied that I wasn't welcome to look in his case. I asked him why to which I got some vague reply about not doing varieties.....wasting his time. I stated that my goal is not strictly to cherry-pick but that I like variations in die states and things of that nature (meaning....not valuable to most people) and that I usually end up finding something I like (which is true....when I look through a dealers stock of more than a few coins I ALWAYS buy something...it USUALLY makes good will). I am not one of the guys who parks himself for an hour or more without buying something...I'm actually pretty fast and can go through a couple stacks 10+ each of Morgans in under 5 minutes. I just got a smug smile with a comment that I wasn't going to waste his time and to have a nice day. Nice guy. So off I went to continue looking. Found another dealer who had a stack of 8TFs in his case. Asked if I could look at them....this guy rolls his eyes and asks if I am looking for varieties. I'm trying not to blow up on this guy after what just happened so I "calmly" asked him why it mattered? He said "Well, Michael Fey has already looked this stack". I said that I'm not necessarily looking for the same coins Michael Fey is and why are the coins out if you don't want anyone looking at them?....I stood up and told him if he was going to be like the jerk on the next row and refuse to let me look at his stock I'd leave because he was wasting my time. I should have done just that as his attitude wasn't much better than the last guy but he said go ahead. It took me a couple of minutes to look at his coins and wow, he actually made a sale. He sure was surprised. Maybe this is turning into a rant but this seems to be happening more and more often. It may just be the 1878's since they have gotten alot of publicity but somehow I don't think Michael Fey is treated like this. When I go to a dealer (or any other business), I don't care what the 10 customers before me did and how they acted. Any more than a dealer would like me to treat him or her based on a bad experience from another dealer. At coin shows, I'm courteous, don't try to haggle prices down or park my butt for an hour or more trying to match up pictures in the Cherry Pickers guide to coins in the dealers stock (I see people doing this). I do get pissed when I get that attitude and won't excuse it. What neither of these guys knew (or gave me a chance to say) was that I was also looking to purchase a nice pre-1900 $10 Liberty for a friend. I did make that purchase but not from either of these guys. Other than that I did run into Dennis H. on my way out. We hadn't met before so I was glad I went.

P.S. for you 1921-D guys....there is a dealer right near the entrance to the coin show that has trays of misc. Morgan and Peace $s. One tray has all 1921-PDS Morgans with at least 150 coins in it (Mostly AU-BU...some look lightly cleaned). I looked through a few but got the feeling that this guy was giving me the evil eye here as well. He got into it with another customer while I was there (who stormed off) so I decided it was time for lunch. I don't know....experiences like this make me long for buying off Ebay

coinbuf

One of the down sides to a strong/bull market, these guys don't need your business. I'd bet they'd be singing a different tune if the market was'nt so strong.

Chris

RYK

It's shameful that there are actually coin dealers who thwart the scholarly pursuit of the coin collecting hobby, in its most raw and uncorrupted form, for no good reason. These dealers should be identified, publicized, ostracized, and avoided.

gamr0n

One of the dealers nearby here refuses to show me any proof sets in original packaging. It really gets on my nerves- they treat me like some thief or something.

DHeath

This hobby remains interesting when EVERYONE wins, and is work otherwise. If the dealer doesn't want to let you look for the stuff he's too lazy or uninterested to look for himself, the hobby becomes too much like work.

boiler78

RYK-- Well said. I couldn't agree more!!

Coxe

<< <i>He said "Well, Michael Fey has already looked this stack". >>



I know that guy. He said the EXACT same thing to me at a show a few years back, a show that I know Michael was not even at. Further, I cherried coins at a table Michael had visited shortly after he was there.

Why sell coins if you are that insecure about the buyer? Whoever buys them will get the same price for the most part. Actually, knowing the customer is a VAM collector and has selected specific pieces gives the seller a bargaining upper hand. So he is pissing away potential extra margin.

Barndog

Some dealers are like this with bust coinage too. Quite annoying.

notlogical

CoinHusker

Sounds like those dealers are too used to high-volume, dealer to dealer, wholesale sales. They are interested in sales, not customers or service. Sad.




I posted this originally on notlogical's not realizing I was in his account instead of mine.

RYK

I must admit it sounded a bit precocious for even Sam.

CoinHusker

Thanks, it gets confusing sharing a PC at home at times.

Precocious...you got that right!

Russ

There's a dealer like this that does our local show circuit. Shrimpy little twerp with an attitude. Every show I make a point of bugging him to show me coins.

Russ, NCNE

Coxe

They really hate to have customers who are far more informed than they are. Some of these guys also wear toupees and drive (compensating) sports cars.

rays

It is the unspoken truth that a substantial number, but by no means all (or even most), coin dealers are not very nice people. When I go to Long Beach, there are about 10 dealers I really like, many others I hardly know and a few I always avoid because they aren't interested in selling to the public and they are only too happy to let one know so.

UncleWiggly

Some Coin Carnies just ain't worth a hoot. Everybody try this. Next time a coin dealer acts like this guy from SD, just look right at him until he's done yapping. Then say...Shut your stupid facehole! Then walk away.



Jerry

coindeuce

J.D., maybe John Franklin should be introduced to Lee Crane or Larry Briggs. I'm sure Lee or Larry could change his attitude about the VAM market, especially if J.F. was privy to the numbers that L.C. and L.B. crank out on an annual basis. Of course, those numbers don't just fall out of the sky. They have be to worked for... something that some dealers are not willing to do. I would have also asked the second dealer "What is so special about Fey that he got free reign to look at your stock"? After all your money is just as green as any other's...

streeter

VamCollector,
I am familiar with one of the wannabe dealers you mentioned in your initial post.

Be glad you walked. Infuriating personality to deal with. Why doesn't he just stay home?

VamCollector

To me it just shows very poor business sense...not to mention just plain rudeness. I'm glad in one sense that I'm not the only person seeing this but disheartened that it does happen. As stated by other posters it seems like a lot of what goes on at LB is dealer to dealer transactions. Some tables are taken up by the same person for what seems like hours. People walk up....are ignored and move on. Several tables I gave up on as it seemed like a single guy was going through every coin the dealer had. Not sure I'll be as psyched about taking off work next time around for this.

UncleWiggly

<< <i>VamCollector,
I am familiar with one of the wannabe dealers you mentioned in your initial post.

Be glad you walked. Infuriating personality to deal with. Why doesn't he just stay home? >>




Like I said...look right at them and say...shut your stupid facehole!



Jerry

MAD4MORGANS

<< <i>The dealer ...asked me if I was into VAMs >>


I wonder what gave him that idea?

Coin Finder

I am not one to defend rudeness, but.... these dealers go from one show to the next, to the next to the next....etc. I am sure these dealers get their share of coin guys that ask to see everything and spend hours looking at the coin, making notes, taking up space and never buy anything. It probably happens at every show. So this guy is just set up, they announce the doors are open and he turns around and he thinks, oh brother here is another one......

Anyway I am not trying to defend what seams like a jerk, but sometimes one can defuse a situation by understanding the other side first.

coinkat

I have no use for rude dealers... but you have to be prepared to deal with certain dealers differently. Work from memory... do not put anything on their table and keep references in a brief case or away from their table and move quickly... time is money for everyone involved.

elwood

<< <i>Then say...Shut your stupid facehole! Then walk away. >>



LMAO

RVDavis

I hate this, and it is getting much worse for those of us who love the hunt for the VAM. Fifteen years ago, when there probably weren't 200 VAM collectors in the country, I could go to a show and dealers were very cooperative, allowing me to spend as much time as I wished searching. If a dealer was nice, I would point out obvious mis-classifications or labels. Education can go both ways.

This week, I went to a local coin shop (not many left here) that I visit every three or four months. The owner, whom I have know for years, was busy. His partner/assistant/whatever came up to me and asked if he could help me. I said I wanted to look through his boxes of Morgans. "You collect VAMs?" was the question. I said I did. He said "We have gone through everything and all VAMs have been marked." He refused to show me anything. I turned around to leave, and the owner called me back and got the coins.

Found an Unc 1882-O VAM 5 EDS in the box; not attributed. Paid $40 bucks for it and left. In the past, I might have pointed it out to the owner who has always treated me well. No more.

Peaceman

You have to get there before Mike that's all....

BlindedByEgo

I just got back from LB, and it was BUSY! Had a great time, picked up a gorgeous PR66 1884 IHC from Rick Snow (the subject of a later thread), saw Brandon at Anaconda, and spent some quality time with Mark Feld (a true gentleman and an absolute riot).

The only real testy moment was when I leaned in towards a sellers case to look at his offerings... I had a gym bag over my shoulder (with some coins in it) and the seller says in a real nasty tone "we're not buying any coins"... I looked around to see who he was talking to - he was looking at me! As I looked down at his bald head (I'm 6'2 and 190, he's about 5'6" and 210) I answered "we're not selling any"... Smiled, laughed, and walked on.

All in all, a fun way to spend 5 hours. Sorry for your experience - smoe sellers just don't like "cherrypickers". I don't understand it, but it is what it is. Jerks!

RVDavis

You have to get there before Mike that's all....



I guess so. I walk up to a dealer with a few hundred dollars, ready to buy raw coins, and he/she won't even let me look at the coins. Someone else will get my business.Text

VamCollector

<< <i>I am not one to defend rudeness, but.... these dealers go from one show to the next, to the next to the next....etc. I am sure these dealers get their share of coin guys that ask to see everything and spend hours looking at the coin, making notes, taking up space and never buy anything. It probably happens at every show. So this guy is just set up, they announce the doors are open and he turns around and he thinks, oh brother here is another one......

Anyway I am not trying to defend what seams like a jerk, but sometimes one can defuse a situation by understanding the other side first. >>



Agreed...but like every other profession where you have to meet and greet the public...its part of the job. No slack gets cut on that as far as I am concerned. I am totally understanding that there are jerks on both sides but if I am not treating the dealer based on my last bad experience I expect the same from him. Also, I don't carry any notebooks, price guides, VAM references (don't really need them anymore for what I look for) at coin shows and didn't have any with me today. Only a loupe. I'm there to look at what I need to look at in a timely fashion so I can get to as many dealers as possible. Oh, and the dealer in question only had 3 or 4 coins I wanted to look at. How long could it have possibly taken?

Coxe

3 or 4? Gee. I usually just do an arm's length grading assessment and hit 3 or 4 PUPs on each to see if I am interested. Doesn't take any serious time. I do understand their lack of patience with unprepared folks who are paging through attribution guides and grey sheets on every coin they examine. A show is limited exposure time ---> money. Being prepared on both sides of the table is important.

ttxp

<< <i>look right at them and say...shut your stupid facehole! >>



Truthfully, I see little reason to be that polite to someone so rude?

I have met dealers who have no desire to sell you anything if they think that you yourself could sell or trade it for more, or that you may know something about it they didn't?

Then there are the types that you pay their full asking price, and after doing so, they feel like you ripped them off?

Go figure?

Bochiman

<< <i>There's a dealer like this that does our local show circuit. Shrimpy little twerp with an attitude. Every show I make a point of bugging him to show me coins.

Russ, NCNE >>



The old guy, from Silverdale or something?

Bochiman

I think part of it, too, is that VAM collectors are "cherrypicking" and using knowledge to make money in a growing segment. The rude dealers see that as a loss of money but aren't industrious enough to learn the VAMs themselves (other than a couple of the major ones most likely) and just don't want to see anyone else pick them and profit.

TwoSides2aCoin

The very first lesson to be learned at a show :
Sometimes it's better to act dumb with dealers because many of them are... so if you act that way, they can relate

flashbang

Situations like this remind me of what my mother use to tell her employees when she owned a leather store: "I don't care what a customer looks, sounds, or smells like. You treat every one of them like they have a million dollars in their pocket b/c one of them will and I'll be pissed if you don't get at least some of it".

DennisH

How does any dealer expect to sell anything -- whether it's circ. Morgans or $4 Stellas -- if potential customers don't look at them? Isn't their objective to sell the darn things?

Perhaps the dealers who treated you badly had recent experience with collectors who looked for VAMs the wrong way -- books on the table, taking up space, parking there for too long and buying too little. I can certainly understand this backlash reponse if that's what happened, although I still don't condone it. (If this approach to 'looking' at coins sounds at all familiar to anyone reading this thread, it's our responsibility to not conduct ourselves in anything resembling this manner.)

But what I really think is behind this pathetic behavior by dealers is simply fear that comes from knowing they are underinformed and badly outmatched by the person wanting to look at the coins. Sadly, insecure little people like this are not likely to ever change.

rec78

Situations like this remind me of what my mother use to tell her employees when she owned a leather store: "I don't care what a customer looks, sounds, or smells like. You treat every one of them like they have a million dollars in their pocket b/c one of them will and I'll be pissed if you don't get at least some of it".

You never know who has the money-i know guys in thousand dollars suits who may buy a $10 coin now and then and i also know guys who look like total bums and could almost buy Fort Knox and aren't afraid to spend. i just dont get dealers chasing away potential customers.
A simialar situation happened to me in Baltimore last year. i asked a dealer to see some of his Canadian coins-he says "o-you dont want to see those" so i figured he didnt want to sell me anything and i didnt pursue it further and moved on. Potential customer lost forever.
But Most dealers who will show you anything you want to see. Bob

VamCollector

<< <i>The very first lesson to be learned at a show :
Sometimes it's better to act dumb with dealers because many of them are... so if you act that way, they can relate >>



Yes, but unless they are really dumb it becomes apparent what you are doing. Other dealers don't care because if you are buying at their price, thats what matters. There are dealers I go to who don't really look at VAMs but know that I do. They know if they put out the effort to show me what they have I will almost always buy something. Thats what matters to them. You can't be an expert at everything and I think most dealers understand this. I couldn't attribute a Large Cent or Bust Half variety to save my life as its not something I specialize in. I've sold Large Cents and Bust Halves in the past. Could I have been cherry picked? Sure. Does it bother me? Nope. I got the price I wanted and realize that I can't know everything. That's life. I think you also have to distinguish cherry-picking from variety collecting. Not all varieties carry premiums and people do collect complete series including the common as well as the rare. I know this applies to other series (Large Cents, Bust halves, etc.) as well. Bottom line is that the dealer mentioned at the top of this thread might have made an additional sale of $500 had he simply acted like someone should who is selling.

claychaser

Another Long Beach report:

I went on Thursday also. The activity seemed to be good, with a lot of dealers buying from other dealers. Many dealers wanted to see if I had coins for sale.

On the positive side, I met the followng FIRST RATE DEALERS. Here are definately the dealers to make a point of seeing. I did not meet all the forum dealers there - just not enough time in one day.

Mark Feld - (Coinguy1). Really a nice guy who took the time to look at some coins that the major services BB'd. He took a lot of time to show me what unacceptable cleaning is, and to check out my 97-S dime that was undergraded accross the street. Small selection of coins, but all very attractive. A quality over quantity dealers.

Julian Liedman - (Julian). The last time I saw him was 25 years ago. Still the same - a courteous and knowlegeable professional. Another great source for a look at coins, who has some really nice material in all price ranges.

Sheridan Downey - I don't believe that he's a forum member. The largest selection of raw and slabbed bust half dollars I ever saw, and a walking encyclopedia of die varieites. Bought 4 really cool coins.

Brandon at Anaconda (Poorguy) - Very cool coins - and lots of them. A dealer to build a relationship with.

Wayne Herndon - A true gentleman and dealer of very nice coins. I salivated over a couple of his coins - and should have bought them.

Steve at PQDollars. Another great selection of coins - dollars as you would expect lead the way. Maybe too sharp for the VAM guys to steal a rare variety from - but I'm not an expert! But, prices looked very reasonable, and a must stop for dollar collectors.

I also had a chance to meet Ron Guth. We talked at length about the general coin market and the factors driving it. A truly nice guy, with no haughty ego. He looked some of my coins, and gave good insight as to what the graders are looking for.

claychaser

Any more reports? Or am I again the official thread killer?

messydesk

<< <i>I think part of it, too, is that VAM collectors are "cherrypicking" and using knowledge to make money in a growing segment. The rude dealers see that as a loss of money but aren't industrious enough to learn the VAMs themselves (other than a couple of the major ones most likely) and just don't want to see anyone else pick them and profit. >>


Exactly. These people don't want to be on the short end of the information assymetry stick and don't want to invest the time to learn stuff on their own. They're insecure with a feeling of entitlement. There are several ways to deal with these types, many of which involve mind games and have the added benefit of being funny.

messydesk

<< <i>

<< <i>The dealer ...asked me if I was into VAMs >>


I wonder what gave him that idea?

>>


Where's the laptop? I walk around the major shows with a laptop stoked with my Wizards. I've actually pulled it out on the bourse floor a couple times, but only if time, space, and perceived patience of the dealer permit and I desperately need to verify something.

Numisone

I guess being stuck here in Delaware is a good thing from all the negative statements that I have heard about Long Beach. We are lucky enough to have a shop dealer here that welcomes the variety hunter. He will even go out of his way to suggest other possibilities that I may overlook. They offer the VAM book each time I sit down to look through the Dollars.

Of course the top 50 and 100 are already holdered, but sometimes you can find one that they missed. No extra charge, no complaining, just a good honest guy who is willing to help those of us who are not the most coin savvy.

I get to about 10 or so shows a year, and for the most part I leave a little discusted with some of the dealers who appear to be bothered by someone wanting to spend some money.

dwssws

<< <i>We are lucky enough to have a shop dealer here that welcomes the variety hunter >>



and where is this heavenly place located in Delaware

Myqqy

They really hate to have customers who are far more informed than they are. Some of these guys also wear toupees and drive (compensating) sports cars.

Well said!!