It must be just me but I don't think the 2 leaves look like each other at all. And just because they curve the same way could mean the same person did it on both. I figure there is just about the same chance of that as the chance of 2 peices of metal falling right next to the ear of corn on different dies with the same dents, details and curves. I guess that's kind of like saying it's easier to believe the world and the universe and stuff all happened by chance rather than being created. When I look at stuff like the sky at night and read about the planets and stuff it makes me think of a Creator and that it all was made on purpose
When I see the extra leaves, where they are, how they look it makes me think that there was a "creator" of them and that they were made on purpose too.
I know I'm just a kid and I don't know all of the stuff everybody else does but that makes sense to me. >>
Well put Samuel, and I agree with you. Looking at the top image, and imagining the incuse design on the working die, if someone added the leaf, it would not go as deep as the original large leaf that is well depressed below the die surface, due to the hardness of the die. So you would expect the added leaf to diappear when it crosses the large leaf depression, and indeed it does.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
"... I look foward to subscribing to his new coin variety publication that is on line."
There is NO subscription to my new variety publication. It is free to anybody that wants to view it. I changed my mind about subscriptions because I believe it is exceedingly more important that information should be made available to all who seek it. If my online DVN newsletters helps one collector -- then I have succeeded. The second issue #2 is up and available at this link for any that want to view it:
I only showed the photos since I was bluntly told that the "High Leaf" does not extend further thru the main leaf and slightly outward into the field.
Yes -- the overlay of the two leafs superimposed are not exactly the same. I didn't say that. I only showed this to allow a view that I believe they are somewhat related to each other. There are a lot of similarities.
For these to be really "Leafs" as a design (whether intentional or unintentional) -- I have a hard time with that, since the "High Leaf" continues onward thru the main leaf and slightly outward into the field tapering off.
This was only to show the reasons of why I'm with the "some form of die damage" case.
Personally -- I find these two Wisconsin quarters very exciting! I wish I had one of each in my personal collection -- but I don't have them.
I think they are great for the hobby and I fully support those that want one.
<< <i>"... I look foward to subscribing to his new coin variety publication that is on line."
There is NO subscription to my new variety publication. It is free to anybody that wants to view it. I changed my mind about subscriptions because I believe it is exceedingly more important that information should be made available to all who seek it. If my online DVN newsletters helps one collector -- then I have succeeded. The second issue #2 is up and available at this link for any that want to view it:
If the 2 curves are approximately the same, couldn't an employee have used some type of tool and 'hammered' the imprint into the die? That way it wouldn't go as deep as the die impression and would give off similar shapes, INCLUDING the indents on the curves. The person may have hit the low leaf twice to make the duel channel effect. Just a thought.
TheZooKrew Morgan, modern sets, circulated Kennedys, and Wisconsin error leaf quarter Collector First (and only - so far) Official "You Suck" Award from Russ 2/9/07
<< <i>If the 2 curves are approximately the same, couldn't an employee have used some type of tool and 'hammered' the imprint into the die? That way it wouldn't go as deep as the die impression and would give off similar shapes, INCLUDING the indents on the curves. The person may have hit the low leaf twice to make the duel channel effect. Just a thought. >>
I'm with you.
This is where I'm at on these two Wisconsin quarters.
(1) I believe they are a form of die damage. Not actual "leafs" by design.
(2) I believe both are related to each other due to similarities. There not "exactly" the same -- but there is a lot of complimenting each other.
(3) I believe they were "intentional" not "unintentional." Do I have proof of this? No. That is pure speculation on my part. But for both to be on TWO DIFFERENT dies, in very similar areas on the two different dies -- that strikes (no pun intended) me as intentional.
(4) Experiences with past dealings with the Mint -- I firmly believe we will not get a definitive answer from them. After all -- the Mint has been saying for years there are no "Doubled dies" from the "single-squeeze" hubbing process. Well -- that has been proven time and time there are "Doubled dies" from the "single-squeeze" hubbing process which have been verified and reported by leading experts for CONECA, Wexler, Coppercoins.com, NCADD, Ken Potter, Bill Fivaz, Jose' Cortez and many, many other specialist.
(5) As I said, I like these two Wisconsin quarters. I fully support them for our hobby and collectors who want one for their personal collection.
With that said, I think overall we are very similar in our believes from the "two camps" so-to-speak. The only difference is I think it's some form of die damage -- other believe they are actual "leaf" designs.
I was just contacted by a gentleman who sent me these two photos with the comments quoted below. I asked his permission and was granted to present this on the forum:
"It's been attributed by ANACS as ( SMALL DIE DENT ) , to date only 16 have been found and all were found in Glendale, Az. The coin was photo'd and a small article was written by Mike Ellis ( CONECA ) in COIN WORLD magazine."
I reqested if I could examine one of his coins and he is going to send one to me.
This could bring another interesting discussion of the Wisconsin quarters so-called "High Leaf" and "Low Leaf" coins.
<< <i>It's not fair to attack someone for believing these were unintentional. There's only circumstantial evidence that they are intentional even if it seems nearly overwhelming to many of us. Certainly the possibility of pure chance exists. Imagine if there were a third variety from the same press that had a similar "gouge" elsewhere. At what point do you say that these were mere coincidence? >>
Anyone that has any knowledge of dies or casting principles, would surely know that these were cut into the dies. The leaves did not just appear! Again repeat the leaves were cut into the die. Defects in the dies not not produce leaves high and low. These leaves are a feature of the die. More than likely since there are multiple dies it is not uncommon to be slightly off on detail from die to die. Evidently the Mint's QA was out to lunch on inspection of the dies.
But what do I know, I have only been in the metallurgical business 30 years!
<< <i>Hijacked thread. Can somebody please answer my question posted at the thread start? >>
Oops.
I heartell they're bringing quite a bit of money and that the high grade ones are bringing five figures. Coin Values reports gem PCGS sets are bringing $1,400.
Hi Tom.....It's me....Larry. I appreciate your info on die gouges. Also, has anyone else used a DREMEL engraving tool, with the new diamond bit to make deep grooves on just about anything, such as a hammer?
<< <i>Hi Tom.....It's me....Larry. I appreciate your info on die gouges. Also, has anyone else used a DREMEL engraving tool, with the new diamond bit to make deep grooves on just about anything, such as a hammer? >>
Hi Larry. Don't have that bit. How easy is it to produce a straight line, or a perfect circle? I remember many years ago our neighborhood watch association was loaning out a simple engraving tool to put ssn's on your TV's and such, and just carving in plastic the tip jiggled all over the place. Tom
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
It must be just me but I don't think the 2 leaves look like each other at all. And just because they curve the same way could mean the same person did it on both. I figure there is just about the same chance of that as the chance of 2 peices of metal falling right next to the ear of corn on different dies with the same dents, details and curves. I guess that's kind of like saying it's easier to believe the world and the universe and stuff all happened by chance rather than being created. When I look at stuff like the sky at night and read about the planets and stuff it makes me think of a Creator and that it all was made on purpose
When I see the extra leaves, where they are, how they look it makes me think that there was a "creator" of them and that they were made on purpose too.
I know I'm just a kid and I don't know all of the stuff everybody else does but that makes sense to me.
Oh no, you get it , dont worry.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
There is NO subscription to my new variety publication. It is free to anybody that wants to view it. I changed my mind about subscriptions because I believe it is exceedingly more important that information should be made available to all who seek it. If my online DVN newsletters helps one collector -- then I have succeeded. The second issue #2 is up and available at this link for any that want to view it:
Die Variety News Home Page
I only showed the photos since I was bluntly told that the "High Leaf" does not extend further thru the main leaf and slightly outward into the field.
Yes -- the overlay of the two leafs superimposed are not exactly the same. I didn't say that. I only showed this to allow a view that I believe they are somewhat related to each other. There are a lot of similarities.
For these to be really "Leafs" as a design (whether intentional or unintentional) -- I have a hard time with that, since the "High Leaf" continues onward thru the main leaf and slightly outward into the field tapering off.
This was only to show the reasons of why I'm with the "some form of die damage" case.
Personally -- I find these two Wisconsin quarters very exciting! I wish I had one of each in my personal collection -- but I don't have them.
I think they are great for the hobby and I fully support those that want one.
Please save one for me to find out there!
<< <i>"... I look foward to subscribing to his new coin variety publication that is on line."
There is NO subscription to my new variety publication. It is free to anybody that wants to view it. I changed my mind about subscriptions because I believe it is exceedingly more important that information should be made available to all who seek it. If my online DVN newsletters helps one collector -- then I have succeeded. The second issue #2 is up and available at this link for any that want to view it:
Die Variety News Home Page
>>
Very cool.
I'm sure I'll be a frequent reader. Thank you.
Morgan, modern sets, circulated Kennedys, and Wisconsin error leaf quarter Collector
First (and only - so far) Official "You Suck" Award from Russ 2/9/07
<< <i>If the 2 curves are approximately the same, couldn't an employee have used some type of tool and 'hammered' the imprint into the die? That way it wouldn't go as deep as the die impression and would give off similar shapes, INCLUDING the indents on the curves. The person may have hit the low leaf twice to make the duel channel effect. Just a thought. >>
I'm with you.
This is where I'm at on these two Wisconsin quarters.
(1) I believe they are a form of die damage. Not actual "leafs" by design.
(2) I believe both are related to each other due to similarities. There not "exactly" the same -- but there is a lot of complimenting each other.
(3) I believe they were "intentional" not "unintentional." Do I have proof of this? No. That is pure speculation on my part. But for both to be on TWO DIFFERENT dies, in very similar areas on the two different dies -- that strikes (no pun intended) me as intentional.
(4) Experiences with past dealings with the Mint -- I firmly believe we will not get a definitive answer from them. After all -- the Mint has been saying for years there are no "Doubled dies" from the "single-squeeze" hubbing process. Well -- that has been proven time and time there are "Doubled dies" from the "single-squeeze" hubbing process which have been verified and reported by leading experts for CONECA, Wexler, Coppercoins.com, NCADD, Ken Potter, Bill Fivaz, Jose' Cortez and many, many other specialist.
(5) As I said, I like these two Wisconsin quarters. I fully support them for our hobby and collectors who want one for their personal collection.
With that said, I think overall we are very similar in our believes from the "two camps" so-to-speak. The only difference is I think it's some form of die damage -- other believe they are actual "leaf" designs.
"It's been attributed by ANACS as ( SMALL DIE DENT ) , to date only 16 have been found and all were found in Glendale, Az. The coin was photo'd and a small article was written by Mike Ellis ( CONECA ) in COIN WORLD magazine."
I reqested if I could examine one of his coins and he is going to send one to me.
This could bring another interesting discussion of the Wisconsin quarters so-called "High Leaf" and "Low Leaf" coins.
<< <i>It's not fair to attack someone for believing these were unintentional. There's only circumstantial evidence
that they are intentional even if it seems nearly overwhelming to many of us. Certainly the possibility of
pure chance exists. Imagine if there were a third variety from the same press that had a similar "gouge"
elsewhere. At what point do you say that these were mere coincidence? >>
Anyone that has any knowledge of dies or casting principles, would surely know that these were cut into
the dies. The leaves did not just appear! Again repeat the leaves were cut into the die.
Defects in the dies not not produce leaves high and low. These leaves are a feature of the die.
More than likely since there are multiple dies it is not uncommon to be slightly off on detail from die to die.
Evidently the Mint's QA was out to lunch on inspection of the dies.
But what do I know, I have only been in the metallurgical business 30 years!
<< <i>Hijacked thread. Can somebody please answer my question posted at the thread start? >>
Oops.
I heartell they're bringing quite a bit of money and that the high grade ones are bringing five figures.
Coin Values reports gem PCGS sets are bringing $1,400.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Hi Tom.....It's me....Larry. I appreciate your info on die gouges. Also, has anyone else used a DREMEL engraving tool, with the new diamond bit to make deep grooves on just about anything, such as a hammer?
<< <i>Hi Tom.....It's me....Larry. I appreciate your info on die gouges. Also, has anyone else used a DREMEL engraving tool, with the new diamond bit to make deep grooves on just about anything, such as a hammer? >>
Hi Larry. Don't have that bit. How easy is it to produce a straight line, or a perfect circle? I remember many years ago our neighborhood watch association was loaning out a simple engraving tool to put ssn's on your TV's and such, and just carving in plastic the tip jiggled all over the place.
Tom