How un-original..

Knuckles

It seems 'b.talent' on eBay has ripped off my card design...

VintageJeff

what is the saying? Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. You do great work.

Bosox1976

Imitation is the highest form of flattery? LOL - on the positive side, are you going to any of the Stanly Cup games? I was at the Bruins-Oilers final (1989 or 90?) when the lights went out - sadly, the only game the Bruins would have won. Oilers won the replayed game en route to a sweep.

ToppsCo1lector

Knuckles, how would a guy like me go about getting a card made by you?

Knuckles

<< <i>what is the saying? Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. You do great work. >>

I thought that as well but I'm worried that people will think that I made these cards which lack the same quality.. but there's nothing I can do about it so whatever I guess..


ToppsCo1lector: shoot me an e-mail garret@signaturecuts.com

poppie

The is always someone trying to confuse a brand, be it Coke/Pepsi or Kellogg/General Mills, etc. Unfortunately, quality sometimes becomes overwhelmed by and can be buried by high advertising budgets! Good luck Garret! You do outstanding work !! Go Pistions; but my Wings !!!!!!

lawnmowerman

<< <i> I'm worried that people will think that I made these cards which lack the same quality.. but there's nothing I can do about it so whatever I guess. >>


Now that someone is copying your work, you might think about putting some type of stamp or seal on the back of your cards so people know that its your work. I know that doesnt help your stuff thats already out there but in the future it would.
Of course if that doesnt work let me know because I know some people that know some people and they can take care of the problem. If you know what I mean

onlyanumber

when I first saw the copy cat's user name you mentioned in the thread I thought it said 'blatant'. 'B. Talent' actually fits when you think about it...

storm888

This is not legal advice. I do not practice law. Just an academic discussion.

The "nothing you can do about it" part may seem to be true.

I have seen and admired your cards. If I saw the subject one and it
was "stated as yours," I would assume it was. If I saw the subject card
out of the context that you have "told us about," I might/would "be
confused" and think it was your card. If I owned a real one of yours,
bought the subject infringer, I would/might think that "your quality was
on the decline."

If he is plainly/clearly/strongly proclaiming that he "made the card," your "confusion
claim" is, obviously, weak. If he says "somebody unknown made
the card," your confusion claim likely remains intact.

If it was my deal, I would write to him and tell him that I want him
to cease and desist from infringing on my design, because he is
diluting the value of my "longstanding and well-established use
of the format." I would also raise the "confusion issue" in my first
letter.

I would be cautious about claiming that the quality of his card is
less than the quality of my cards, until I had actually held his card
in my hand.

All that said: When the magazine article on your work came out,
it was sort of a de facto invitation for folks to "try their hand at
card-making." Even so, it was contemplated that the reader would
"use their own ideas and not simply copy" your templates.

One could copyright an original template, but the economics of that
would have to be determined based on "planned future use" for
profit. If I copyright-protected ten different templates, and placed
a registered service mark somewhere in the field I could better
defend my position, but even "slight, yet meaningful alterations"
to a "protected work," often defeat the enforcement of such
protection. For example, maybe if he had - to use a photo term -
"flopped" the reverse design and altered the divider size/style,
such a "change" would/might be found "meaningful and unlikely
to cause confusion."

I have been on both sides of these kinds of issues, and have found
that the Federal Courts are pretty protective of service marks and
intellectual property rights. The most compelling words in such cases
revolve around the "confusion issue." Some Federal Judges are not
brilliant and they often tend to believe Plaintiff's who claim that
someone might/could/would be confused. Such a Plaintiff in Federal Court
need not prove that "confusion has transpired," in order to shut down
an infringer.

If I lived in the same state as someone who was infringing on my work,
I would claim "unfair business practices" in a State District/Circuit court.
I would raise the confusion claim, and the dilution claim. Most states
have cool "treble damages" provisions in their statutes; if I could prove
- 51/49 - that my infringer did the complained of deed in order to
enrich himself and deprive me of my lawfully anticipated revenues, I
could win some extra cash.

I am not absolutely certain that you are damaged here. A lawyer could
take a look at it and decide/guess.

Lawyers are expensive and usually worth every dollar spent, but these
"small" cases are not the kind that lawyers offer contingent deals on.
A judgment is just a piece of paper, so collecting money from little
folks is tough. On the other hand, a simple Court Order that the conduct
stop would be enforced and violations would be sanctioned; but, the
sanctions/money may or may not go to the "injured party."

If somebody did it to TOPPS, that company would have to spend whatever
it took to shut the infringer down.

At this point we do not know what this guy's intent is. Does he plan to
"build an empire" stealing your designs? Does he hope to profit by
confusing people and turning out garbage products? Time will tell.

A distinctive service mark that does not affect eye appeal might be
a good way to "help" nip this in the bud, if you think it is going to be a
big problem in the future. A google search can get you to the
gov sites, and you do not need lawyers or consultants to file
the forms.

If I did not plan to get rich making my cards, I might just contact the guy
and offer to help him come up with a different template in his future
projects. I might also help him do "a better job," if I thought such help
was needed.

That is all just my 25-cents worth of opinion. But, I do understand that
it does not feel like "flattery" when somebody borrows/steals/copies your
ideas.

storm

Stone193

It's like a Gucci knockoff!

You're the best over here Knucks!

That's what counts.

mike

VintageJeff

Guys i in no means wanted to make light of the situation. Just wanted to state that knuckles is doing something right if people are copying I didn't think we were going to get into legal issues here.

Knuckles

Thanks for the great words.

All being said I wouldn't want to open up the larger can of worms.. that being NHL logo use..

ToppsCo1lector

Do you do other than NHL cards?

Knuckles

Yep, all sorts.

Knuckles

I wonder why SGC/JSA didn't slab the cards.. must have been made too thick.

ToppsCo1lector

Thats awesome Knuckles! I'm going to hit you with an email pretty soon.

WinPitcher

Garrett

this is by no means an inflammatory question. My question is can you even put your name to these cards that you make? I'm asking cuz you are using images of people. Or is the way you do it public domain? and thus ok?

In any event I too have always admired your work.

Steve

Knuckles

I'm thinking it is public domain as they're home made.. essentially what's the difference between one of my cards and something like this..



To me, nothing but size.. I'm framing a cut signature.. The guy that's selling that won't hear boo. I on the other hand probably will.

WinPitcher

The reason I asked is when you (or anyone profit) from the sale of such items it then becomes possibly a problem. The making of them for your own enjoyment is one thing. Selling them (like our friend) is possibly something else.
I'm just asking hypothetically.

Steve

fab4

need to check on public domain : the gentleman that did all the art work and 1/2 owner of the CARDTOONS back in the early 90's (i'm the godfather to his children) is a very good friend of mine. they did the cards and never asked for an authorization from MLB as it was a parody of player not actual photos.

long story short......sued my MLB and by the time all the rulings we over so was all the money they had. they didn't think a couple of fellows from tulsa oklahoma would get sued by MLB .

lot of money.........lot of lawsuits..........a warehouse full of cards.............no cardtoons.

NBAFan

The difference between your cards and the Nolan Ryan piece is the fact the picture on the nolan ryan piece "may" be licensed while your using the logos without written consent. I wouldn't put anything directly on any of the cards that could link it directly back to you like your name incase of trouble down the line. If your cards were for your own personal use, there might not be as big of an issue, but seeing you are making money and profiting from using the image of the players and teams there could be huge lawsuits just waiting to happen. It's almost the same as sellers bootlegging movies seeing someone who should be making money is not getting a cut of the action.

Knuckles

This guy (link) whom sells DVD's of hockey game broadcasts.. Leafs TV etc.. says he accepts $15 'donations' per dvd.. I wonder how that's working out for him.. He's been doing this for quite awhile now.

But yeah, I'll only put an insignia on a card that doesn't have any logo's.

WinPitcher

That was the reason I tried to mention it.

I would suggest you just put a K on the card.


Steve

tkd7

Garret-
I just looked at the guy's auctions and his stuff definitely is an inferior product. Poor layout, inferior autographs, no slabbing.

I've seen your work up close and know how good it is. The card you made for me is off to PSA, when its back, I'll post a picture.

I think the real interesting thing will be if an unlicensed card makes it into a catalogue auction. With the high profile signatures that are being used and the quality better than most UD and Topps signature cuts, I can see it happening soon.

Tom

Knuckles

Thanks Steve..

Thanks Tom.

Check out this thread from the other part of town..


Wondering what you guys think.. I see people selling tickets all the time for way over face value which is illegal but they auction them off saying something along these lines.. 'this auction is for a puck, pen, photo, whatever... and thrown in for free are a pair of tickets to blah blah... they've been on eBay forever and have great feedback so they're getting around the law this way. So would it be fine for me to say I'm selling this photo of Mickey Mantle and thrown in for free is a Mickey Mantle signature cut card? Just exercising a thought here..

NBAFan

Actually, the "free tickets" auctions are against ebay policy also if you look in the rules and regulations.

WinPitcher

Garrett

The reason the cards are different is that they have an image of someone on them. In some cases an image may be used only on a certain companys cards. UD has had exclusive contracts with ex players.

I really do not see you having a problem as you are not mass producing them.

Yet at the same time I would not put my full name on them either.
or anything that could trace them back to me.

In any event keep up the fine work they are masterpieces and like Jeff mentioned imitation is a form of flattery.

Steve

Knuckles

Good sound advice Steve, thank you.

- Garret