Derek Jeter post season hitting....

Skinpinch

Much has been said about the clutch debate....consensus NY fans(on here) say Arod isn't, while it isn't even a question about Jeter. Most have said they would much rather have Jeter up in a big at bat. It doesn't get much bigger than a post season game with runners on base. I would say that is a pretty big at bat. Any player that is proclaimed clutch should do very well in this type of situation if he is to be proclaimed clutch.

The following are Jeter's career post season at bats with MEN ON, and RISP(runners in scoring position).

..................AB..........AVG......OB%.......SLG%
MEN ON.....144.........236......337..........305
RISP..........73...........233......349..........329

The OB% are about league average, though well below Jeter's normal rate. The batting averages are well below league average, and far below Jeter's norm. The SLG% are awful.

Clutch can be measured a few ways, and this is a pretty clutch time to be a batter. It would seem to me that if a player had the ability to rise to the occasion, or simply avoid failure, that it would show at least somewhat in this area. Being that Jeter is substantially below his normal batting abilities in this clutch moment, it has to be hard for him to be proclaimed as big time clutch as people do.

Axtell

Good analysis, and the tendency (as you have mentioned) to only remember specific events and not the entire body of work as well.

Someone posted that 'not all postseason at bats are important', and I am going to assume the yankee apologists will be here in force on this one, saying he got hits when it mattered.

Oh well, the yankeeites will be swarming on this one, trying to spin and dissect it to fit their view of Jeter as some sort of postseason immortal, when, in fact, he's far from it.

ToppsCo1lector

Well, it actually watch the games you'd see what everybody is talking about. It's not suprising he is on the All-World series team that a baseball historian/analyst put up a few years ago. Hey, why didn't ya ever up that stupid thread you had comparing HOF'ers to bums in the postseason? I think this'll be one of those type threads.

Skinpinch

That HOF thread compared to bums was used to show the danger of taking post season stats to such heart. Because all the people who take them to such heart would HAVE to take the bum team instead of the HOF team for a 'big' game.

I don't know the historians criteria for that WS team. Depending on his criteria, he may merit it. I'm assuming since he was there so often that it is playing an astronomical part in his selection. That doesn't make him better than another SS who never was as fortunate to have so many good teammates. In that case, it simply renders the WS team to more of a novelty.

P.S. I watched every game too. In fact back in the late 90's I watched almost every baseball game imaginable. Jeter gets praised for the 'play', mainly because Giambi didn't slide. But I remember against Arizona a defensive mishap that cost them.

Ax is correct, people always remember the good, but seem to brush the bad to the side(especially if it doesn't fit their argument).

Jeter is a great player, not by virture of being on 4 title teams, but by his body of work.


P.S. Toppscollector, if Jeter is on the all time WS team for those reasons, than those bums are ahead of the HOFers in the running for that team. That should show the folly of taking the post season numbers to such heart.

bri2327

postseason numbers will almost always be lower than regular season numbers due to the higher quality of the opponent a batter is facing ( better pitching, better fielding ) That being said, I do have to admit that many people recall only the good things that are done, and when referring to Jeter, most people remember only what he did during the 5 years in which they won 4 world series, and forget for the most part what has occured in the past 5 seasons since their last title.

When you have good teammates around you, and a great pitching staff many of the not so clutch moments are covered up. During their title run the Yankees had alot of guys who stepped up in situations where maybe Jeter failed that day, making it easy to forget. How many games did Brosius win where Jeter didnt have a great game ? Leyritz ? O'Neill ? Tino ? Justice ? All of these players came up with their share of big hits, the end result being the championships they won. Easily forgotten are days when Jeter went 0-4 but when Brosius or someone else stepped up, won the game and put Jeters poor day to the side.

All that being said, nobody can fault any Yankee fan for having a love affair with Jeter. He did come up big many many times, and he has been the foremost name during the past 10 years in Yankee land. I doubt there is anyone who wouldnt have praise for a guy who was an integral part of one championship, nevermind 4. Maybe the memory of fact has been a bit clouded, but it certainly doesnt warrant taking anything away from a great player and person who brought so much to his team and fans. He will still be a no brain lock for the hall of fame when all is said and done.

WinPitcher

What bri said.............


Steve

Axtell

I was told that not all postseason at bats counted.

Now it appears, in an attempt to spin Jeter's numbers up, that they do, and not just runners in scoring postion.

Which is it, yankee apologists?

The numbers don't lie. When a hit counts the most, his batting average is a measly .233.

Quit comparing his numbers to Arods...JETER is the discussion here. QUIT SPINNING.

bri2327

<< <i>I was told that not all postseason at bats counted.

Now it appears, in an attempt to spin Jeter's numbers up, that they do, and not just runners in scoring postion.

Which is it, yankee apologists?

The numbers don't lie. When a hit counts the most, his batting average is a measly .233.

Quit comparing his numbers to Arods...JETER is the discussion here. QUIT SPINNING. >>




Hey jerk O##, show me where on this thread is Jeter being compared to Arod ???

WinPitcher

Who told you that?

that all post season at bats do not count? I think what bri and many others said was not all P.O atbats are clutch.

only spin here is you.


you goy owned this morning on the over-rated thread and have not been seen there since.


Steve

Axtell

<< <i>

Hey jerk O##, show me where on this thread is Jeter being compared to Arod ??? >>



WP had stated it BEFORE his edit, saying that Arod's numbers were even lower than Jeters.

WinPitcher

Bri I think he meant me, I deleted what i said.

and in skips initial post here he mentions arod.



Much has been said about the clutch debate....consensus NY fans(on here) say Arod isn't, while it isn't even a question about Jeter



I was expanding on that.


Steve

Axtell

WP-

We are waiting for your theory on how huge disparities in payroll are good for baseball in the royals thread...why do you ignore your responsibility?

bri2327

oh well, sorry for that one Ax, my bad !

WinPitcher

Typical Axhole, here he hijacks the thread in a lame attempt to bait me into another. yet when other people have done the same thing he is the first to cry "stay on topic"

Steve

SoFLPhillyFan

<< <i> Who told you that? that all post season at bats do not count? >>



The same guy that told him who covers what bases when the ball is in play. That guy must be a real expert.


Why debate this at all?

Let's just ask Jack Morris.

He's psychic you know.

Skinpinch

Bri, the overall post season numbers don't really deviate much fron the regular season actually. If they do it is a very small amount, and nothing close to the disparity of Jeter's hitting with men on base(as opposed to his normal hitting rate).

All the other stuff you said in your post is pretty accurate. In fact, that was very well said

I'm not trying to take away of how good a player Jeter is, that is seen 162 games per year. The extra 12 games he plays at the end don't change his true level of ability.

All the stuff I've posted about the post season numbers, and the sheer folly of trying to use that information as proof that someone is 'big game' clutch, is the main point. One simply can't ignore the poor performance of Jeter's MEN ON BASE hitting in the post season, and then use other post season criteria to claim he is clutch. No matter which way you slice it, batting with men on base in the post season is clutch regardless of inning or game. If he truly has a clutch ability, then there is no way he should be that bad in those situations. What is more at work than anything else is simple randomness of when the hits occur. A clutch element can exist, but a players post season numbers(with the limited amount of at bats), don't do much to show proof.

We need to have a discussion about team win expectancy to put into perspective a players late inning performance, compared to early inning performance. Performances that are saved for the late innings have MINOR significance compared towards the same performance done in earlier innings. It makes a difference, but smaller than most seem to think. THen one must realize that almost all players late inning clutch performances tend to even out as time goes by anyway.

WinPitcher

Skip

You fail to mention what happened all the other times jeter batted.

I assume the numbers you tout are real (last week with McCovey) you sported some numbers and when called out on them ( I believe by Aro) you back stepped. claiming you were estimating or something like that. So i am assuming that these are correct and not like McCoveys.

My question is simply, If Jeter overall has basically the same average in the post season as he does lifetime (307 to 315) being a leadoff/ number 2 hitter is it really fair to put so much emphasis on what he did with RISP? I mean can he also be clutch if he starts a rally? Or if he hits a homer say in November with no one on? And wins the game? or if he simply moves a guy from 1st to 3rd with 2 outs and the next guy then wins the game? Putting so much emphasis on one aspect and claiming it as the final word IMO does not clearly explain (to me at least) that he is clutch or not. So many other examples can be cited and you have left them all out.

Steve


edited to add: In re reading your post i see that you indeed used what he did with 'someone on base' however even with the 2 examples I can find many other possible scenarios that you have failed to mention. and this is only on offense not defense.

also no disrespect intended in the beginning of my post I just wanted to make sure that the numbers you used are real.

Thanks

stown

Skin,

Where do you get your numbers from? Not that I'm doubting you but I've seen your calculation off by 10%. As you know, 10% can make a HUGE impact when it comes to baseball.

Also, when speaking of "clutch", you analyze Jeter's post season RISP innings 1-9 (plus extra innings, if applicable) numbers. As I said on another thread, "clutch" I define as late innings heroics. Do you define "cluch" as any opportunity during a game?

Axtell

I would think the definition of clutch would be how a player performs with runners in scoring position, if there is going to be anything to be determined as 'clutch'.

WP, how would you define clutch, then? If it's not how a player performs with runners in scoring position in the postseason, you want to take raw batting averages?

Boopotts

<< <i>postseason numbers will almost always be lower than regular season numbers due to the higher quality of the opponent a batter is facing ( better pitching, better fielding ) That being said, I do have to admit that many people recall only the good things that are done, and when referring to Jeter, most people remember only what he did during the 5 years in which they won 4 world series, and forget for the most part what has occured in the past 5 seasons since their last title.

When you have good teammates around you, and a great pitching staff many of the not so clutch moments are covered up. During their title run the Yankees had alot of guys who stepped up in situations where maybe Jeter failed that day, making it easy to forget. How many games did Brosius win where Jeter didnt have a great game ? Leyritz ? O'Neill ? Tino ? Justice ? All of these players came up with their share of big hits, the end result being the championships they won. Easily forgotten are days when Jeter went 0-4 but when Brosius or someone else stepped up, won the game and put Jeters poor day to the side.

All that being said, nobody can fault any Yankee fan for having a love affair with Jeter. He did come up big many many times, and he has been the foremost name during the past 10 years in Yankee land. I doubt there is anyone who wouldnt have praise for a guy who was an integral part of one championship, nevermind 4. Maybe the memory of fact has been a bit clouded, but it certainly doesnt warrant taking anything away from a great player and person who brought so much to his team and fans. He will still be a no brain lock for the hall of fame when all is said and done. >>



Is anyone else getting the feeling that Bri is one of the most level headed and reasonable posters on these boards?

murcerfan

murcerfan

Boopotts

<< <i> >>

stown

<< <i>I would think the definition of clutch would be how a player performs with runners in scoring position, if there is going to be anything to be determined as 'clutch'. >>



So someone hitting in 1, down by 10, and in the 4th is just as clutch as a game ending 3-run HR with 2 out, 2 stikes, and down by 2?

Don't try to spin this ax, it will just get worse for you....

Axtell

Stown-

There is no spinning going on here, and I have to wonder why you've taken such an accusatory town lately.

Skin posted numbers that verify that Jeter's BA, with RISP, is significantly lower than his postseason BA as a whole would have you believe. Throw in this 'mythology' surrounding how 'clutch' he is, and you begin to get a more realistic image of just how overrated Jeter's postseason accomplishments have become.

RickyHendersonSD

I was watching the Yankees lose to the lowly Royals on MLB.TV. Ha Ha. Jeter had his 2,000th hit. Only the 2nd Yankee other than Gehrig to have 2,000 or more hits by their 32nd birthday. Pretty impressive even for a Yankee.

ToppsCo1lector

Only Carew, Young, Boggs, and Gwynn got to 2000 faster than Jete since expansion....Axtell your so right, put him on another team and he's a nobody. lol.

RickyHendersonSD

Axtell is so ove. And he says he knows baseball? Ha Ha. Now that is a joke.

Axtell

<< <i>Only Carew, Young, Boggs, and Gwynn got to 2000 faster than Jete since expansion....Axtell your so right, put him on another team and he's a nobody. lol. >>



Who's to say he's going to get all those opportunities on another team? It certainly helps being in a lineup full of all stars with all that protection behind you, pitchers have to pitch to him.

Not saying that's the only reason, but it certainly helps. Oh wait, he's got

<< <i>intangibles! What am I thinking.

WinPitcher

Who's to say he's going to get all those opportunities on another team?


Yeah players on other teams do not get opportunities (plate appearances) Only Jeter and his team get to the plate.

talk about spin.

Steve

ToppsCo1lector

<< <i>

<< <i>Only Carew, Young, Boggs, and Gwynn got to 2000 faster than Jete since expansion....Axtell your so right, put him on another team and he's a nobody. lol. >>



Who's to say he's going to get all those opportunities on another team? It certainly helps being in a lineup full of all stars with all that protection behind you, pitchers have to pitch to him.

Not saying that's the only reason, but it certainly helps. Oh wait, he's got

<< <i>intangibles! What am I thinking. >>




Jetes not a slugger, it doesn't seem smart to pitch around a guy who's whole MO is just getting on base. So your answer would be to walk Jete? Good Idea! lol What are you thinking? lol

WinPitcher

He was thinking: How can I put down Jeter? how can I spin it, then when called on it claim he was misunderstood and everyone else is spinning. If that fails he then resorts to calling people idiot, moronic, dopes etc. He then baits you into lowering yourself to his level hoping to get you to do the same. Then one of his (alt id's) comes on and agrees with him. they attaboy each other and he thinks he has won.


Steve

aro13

Small sample size but just for fun here are Arod and Ortiz post-season numbers:

ARod At Bats OBP SLG
Men On 54 .315 .362
RISP 29 .200 .208

Ortiz
Men On 71 .458 .718
RISP 40 .521 .675

Axtell

No, but please tell me that you don't think that Jeter would see as many good pitches to hit if he was the only real threat of getting on base.

Please don't tell me you think he'd be pitched to the same way without a murderer's row behind him?

Please don't tell me you think he wouldn't be pitched completely differently than he is now?


To say his lineup behind him doesn't contribute significantly to the pitches he sees is ignorant at best.

stown

<< <i>Stown-

There is no spinning going on here, and I have to wonder why you've taken such an accusatory town lately.

Skin posted numbers that verify that Jeter's BA, with RISP, is significantly lower than his postseason BA as a whole would have you believe. Throw in this 'mythology' surrounding how 'clutch' he is, and you begin to get a more realistic image of just how overrated Jeter's postseason accomplishments have become. >>



I have not taking an accusatory town (sic) with you, ax. You said being clutch, regardless of inning or circumstance, is coming through with RISP. I was mearly pointing to the fact that is not a definition of clutch. Ironically, you dismiss the point and go back to Jeter being overrated.

Just to remind you..

Me: "Also, when speaking of "clutch", you analyze Jeter's post season RISP innings 1-9 (plus extra innings, if applicable) numbers. As I said on another thread, "clutch" I define as late innings heroics. Do you define "cluch" as any opportunity during a game?"

You: "I would think the definition of clutch would be how a player performs with runners in scoring position, if there is going to be anything to be determined as 'clutch'.

WP, how would you define clutch, then? If it's not how a player performs with runners in scoring position in the postseason, you want to take raw batting averages?"

Me: "So someone hitting in 1, down by 10, and in the 4th is just as clutch as a game ending 3-run HR with 2 out, 2 stikes, and down by 2?

Don't try to spin this ax, it will just get worse for you...."

You: "Stown-

There is no spinning going on here, and I have to wonder why you've taken such an accusatory town lately.

Skin posted numbers that verify that Jeter's BA, with RISP, is significantly lower than his postseason BA as a whole would have you believe. Throw in this 'mythology' surrounding how 'clutch' he is, and you begin to get a more realistic image of just how overrated Jeter's postseason accomplishments have become."

As I was saying, so someone hitting in 1, down by 10, and in the 4th is just as clutch as a game ending 3-run HR with 2 out, 2 stikes, and down by 2?

Axtell

<< <i>
As I was saying, so someone hitting in 1, down by 10, and in the 4th is just as clutch as a game ending 3-run HR with 2 out, 2 stikes, and down by 2? >>



No, but I would presume that the number of situations of each would balance themselves out.

In addition, the likelihood of a blowout loss/win, I would think, would be much less in the playoffs due to the increased quality of the teams/players and the more even competitive nature of the best teams meeting in the playoffs.

I think you'd have far fewer blowouts in the playoffs as a percentage than you would the regular season.

One more thing. Arod's home run the other day, when they were up 4-1, which took the game to 7-1, ultimately turned out to be the difference in the game. Would you put less weight on that hit because he hit it with his team already winning by 3?

stown

You still haven't told me what clutch is.

WinPitcher

I'd like to know what an i]accusatory town is.

For a guy that jumps all over people for typos he sure makes his fair share invariably.


Steve

Axtell

<< <i>You still haven't told me what clutch is. >>



You didn't ask me what clutch was.

Clutch, by and large, is a myth. It doesn't exist. There are no 'clutch' hitters. There are no 'clutch' pitchers. The perfect example: this aura that Jeter is 'clutch' in postseason when, looking at the numbers subjectively, tells another story.

People want to remember players as 'clutch' as it gives them a story to tell. The 'intangibles' of the game, they say to their friends. He 'knows how to win', as they think back to plays from the past.

However, on the flip side of that, is the truth that it is balanced out by not coming up big in big situations more often than not.

Skinpinch

WIn, I didn't back step on anything about McCovey. Anything that was estimated was stated so. If it wasn't stated as an estimate it was right on(as right on as I am going to get for a message board, and a partly peon audience). If it needed clarification, that was because it wasn't understood properly the first time.

Stown, what was off by 10%? You mean when you asked me for the breakdown of when those 20 homers occured, and on my list it totaled to 22? The 20 homers were done accurately. In my haste to go back through the log and tally them up(at your request), I doubled counted two of them. I literally took that list out of the garbage to tally them quickly before moving onto my life. I do have a life besides posting on message boards.

Win, I fail to mention the other times he batted? Well yeah. You guys are missing the main point! If Jeter has some magical ability to rise to the occasion, then why on earth does he not use it in the clutch situation of men on base in a playoff game?? Does he magically forget it? How do you explain his terrible batting with men on base in the playoffs?? Are you saying Jeter is simply doing bad on purpose in those situations, because it isn't the late innings? Coming up in the fifth inning down by one with two men on is VERY important in determining if your team will win.


Stown, late inning heroics are going to provide such a small sample, it is meaningless. So if a guy has 5 for 15 in late inning heroic at bats, and has a .333 average, then you consider him clutch?? So then two years later in his next four late inningin heroic at bats he goes 0 for 4, is he not considered clutch now that he is a .250 hitter there?

That is why I posted those mystery guys in that thread. One of them was Bernie Williams. He was the best post season hitter ever for his first several series, but given time he had some terrible series to equal out his true value.

A players post season numbers reflect randomness much more than anything else relating to clutch.

BEFORE ANYBODY REPLIES TO ANY OF MY ABOVE STATEMENTS, I WANT THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION....How do you explain Derek Jeter's very poor batting with men on base in the post season?

Skinpinch

Real quick here, Jeter post season at bats tied, down by one, or down by two...ninth inning or later.

28 AB,,,,,,7 hits,,,,,,

.250/.344/.464


That is slightly lower than his normal rate of production.

Going through the game logs of the close games I noticed many other Yankees getting the big hits to win games.


When measuring if a clutch attribute exists, a common way to do it is to simply count how many times they succeeded, or failed, regardless of the type of hit, in the clutch situation. It is simple, if the clutch attribute exists, he simply would not fail to a strong degree of times

THE ULTIMATE CLUTCH:

In 12 World Series plate appearances, down by two or less, in the ninth inning or later, Jeter came through three times with something positive, and NINE times something negative. Yet, everyone is saying they want Jeter as the man to come to plate with the game on the line, late in the game, in a big game. Does this not fit that criteria of a big game? Should a man who fails NINE times out of TWEVLE be considered the clutch performer he is being made out to be? If he is the man you want, then expect(according to everyones rationale) that he will fail nine times out of every twelve plate appearances in the ultimate clutch spot.

In the LCS he failed SEVEN out of TEN times in said situation. Not very good either.
IN the DCS he failed FIVE out of NINE times....I guess he has reverse(J. Morris) psychic abilities as he did his best here.


I'll say it again fellas, stick to the measurements that actually reveal something that resembles reality. This stuff is good for fun, but thats about it.

WinPitcher

Not for nothing Skip but I do not remm anyone here ever saying that jeter has some MAGICAL ABILITY to step up when the game is on the line and be clutch all the time, or more then he does during any given period of time. And, if anyone did in fact finally say that he was clutch they certaintly did not meaan it in the way that you claim(like he has some magical power) That was you and axhole embellishing what people did in fact say. You then come here and throw some stats around that are skewed (IMO) in such a way to prove your point and only your point. As you surely know baseball is a game of failure. So what if he was 1 for 15 before he hit that homer that November evening. We remm the homer! We remm that at bat as CLUTCH You seem to want to dwell that he was 1 for 15. You then always go on and claim victory cuz the stats say so. Did it ever occur to you that stats do not tell the whole story? I have constantly given you examples where I feel that stats did not tell a whole story. Yet you always 'skip' around them and now claim that we are peons and you could analyze even more! Please DON'T!



and, regarding the McCovey thread i certaintly remm you back tracking at the time when called upon regarding the validity of the numbers you used.


believe me when i say EVERYONE understands that stats balance out. That is why they are called STATS. We are not a bunch of idiots here that know nothing of the game and its history. Some of us knew about OPS long before Bill James came along and touted it. I remm as a kid playing with stats and adding batting average and slg pct and coming up with a number. Know before you cry out that OPS is not batting average (it is Onbase plus Slg pct) my point is many people read stats differently and your way is NOT THE ONLY way. It is your way and thus just your opinion. Please stop stating what you say as fact when you can't prove it. The comment you made just today regarding McCovey "pussed" out is a perfect example of you claiming FACT By all means, give an opinion and let the reader decide for themselves if it is valid.

Even peons deserve that.

Steve

WinPitcher

In the LCS he failed SEVEN out of TEN times in said situation. Not very good either.

Another perfect example of skewing stats.

you do realize that failing 7 out of 10 times is batting .300?

how is that so far removed from his lifetime average of 315?

It has already been said that in playoffs the best are there, not teams like the lowly mariners thus players are facing the best. they are facing pitchers in many cases having great years. i know you went through every at bat. you have the magical logs. he got his 3 hits off the mop up guy in a 10- 2 blowout.




Steve

Skinpinch

First, I replied to your McCovey comment over there.

Those stats are skewed, because they are too small a sample, much like the sample of Arod's supposed chokeness, or any other players supposed chokeness (like the HOFers I showed). People do in fact say somebody is a choker based on such a small sampling of post season data. I'm showing that that data doesn't show someone is a choker or clutch, it is more a product of randomness.

Yes, people do say that Jeter 'rises' to the occasion, but it isn't rising to the occasion, it is simply a random event occuring at the right time for him. Yes it is random, and if you do not believe it is random, then remember his MEN ON HITTING in the post season, as that is random too, but the opposite way for him.

If it isn't a mythical ability to all of a sudden make him better, than what exactly is it? Why doesn't he 'rise' more often?

You've never given me an example where I skipped around anything, at least any example that had validity. If I did skip around it it is because I knew the validity was nothing good to even bother with.


The problem with reading stats differently IS THE PROBLEM! People look and use the WRONG stats, the ones that are faulty and don't show the treau measure/value of a player. Reality is reality, regardless of how one views it.

I'm not into opinions, I'm into reality and truth. Unfounded opinions are what cause me to write about this. After all, even if I wasn't into opinions and really took the word 'pussed' for full meaning, then why on earth are you arguing against it? It would be my 'opinion' wouldn't it?? It can't be both ways.


P.S. GO back and read carefully the McCovey thread again, I didn't back track anything. The only thing I did was to keep it on course of the point. Reading is a skill.

Skinpinch

Umm Steve, not to burst your bubble, but that is PLATE APPEARANCES!!! Is .300 a good rate? Plus you are also missing the point. When deciding if clutch exists, a player either passes or fails the test. In straightforward terms, he failed at an unacceptble rate for anybody to be considered clutch as he is.

WinPitcher

In the LCS he failed SEVEN out of TEN times in said situation. Not very good either.


Skip not to burst your bubble but how did I know you meant On base there?

and even if you did it is written in such a way that it implies he did not walk, etc on those occasions.

If I misunderstood you I am sorry. the fact remains that you have made more of this clutch BS then anyone else has.

OK OK I get it. I get the point. satisfied? The guy was in all those WS and had nothing to do with winning any of the games. is that what you want to hear? I never said he had some magical powers. I have simply said from day one that I disputed certain aspects of what has been said about him. far too much time and energy has been devoted to this nonsense.


Steve

Skinpinch

It was written differently.

I've gone on record to saying what kind of player Jeter is, but have maintained that people are getting caught up in the intangible bs, like post season clutch, and I think I've showed enough to show that measuring him, or any player that way is quite faulty and not accurate.

Bottom line??

He has over 6,700 instances to be measured on, and that is all that is needed.

stown

<< <i>

<< <i>You still haven't told me what clutch is. >>



You didn't ask me what clutch was.

Clutch, by and large, is a myth. It doesn't exist. There are no 'clutch' hitters. There are no 'clutch' pitchers. The perfect example: this aura that Jeter is 'clutch' in postseason when, looking at the numbers subjectively, tells another story.

People want to remember players as 'clutch' as it gives them a story to tell. The 'intangibles' of the game, they say to their friends. He 'knows how to win', as they think back to plays from the past.

However, on the flip side of that, is the truth that it is balanced out by not coming up big in big situations more often than not. >>



What?!?! Dude, reread that whole post I made to you. Better yet, I'll post it below. BTW - If "clutch" doesn't exist, then you can't say someone ISN'T clutch.. Eat your cake and have it too while you are at it



<< <i>

<< <i>Stown-

There is no spinning going on here, and I have to wonder why you've taken such an accusatory town lately.

Skin posted numbers that verify that Jeter's BA, with RISP, is significantly lower than his postseason BA as a whole would have you believe. Throw in this 'mythology' surrounding how 'clutch' he is, and you begin to get a more realistic image of just how overrated Jeter's postseason accomplishments have become. >>



I have not taking an accusatory town (sic) with you, ax. You said being clutch, regardless of inning or circumstance, is coming through with RISP. I was mearly pointing to the fact that is not a definition of clutch. Ironically, you dismiss the point and go back to Jeter being overrated.

Just to remind you..

Me: "Also, when speaking of "clutch", you analyze Jeter's post season RISP innings 1-9 (plus extra innings, if applicable) numbers. As I said on another thread, "clutch" I define as late innings heroics. Do you define "cluch" as any opportunity during a game?"

You: "I would think the definition of clutch would be how a player performs with runners in scoring position, if there is going to be anything to be determined as 'clutch'.

WP, how would you define clutch, then? If it's not how a player performs with runners in scoring position in the postseason, you want to take raw batting averages?"

Me: "So someone hitting in 1, down by 10, and in the 4th is just as clutch as a game ending 3-run HR with 2 out, 2 stikes, and down by 2?

Don't try to spin this ax, it will just get worse for you...."

You: "Stown-

There is no spinning going on here, and I have to wonder why you've taken such an accusatory town lately.

Skin posted numbers that verify that Jeter's BA, with RISP, is significantly lower than his postseason BA as a whole would have you believe. Throw in this 'mythology' surrounding how 'clutch' he is, and you begin to get a more realistic image of just how overrated Jeter's postseason accomplishments have become."

As I was saying, so someone hitting in 1, down by 10, and in the 4th is just as clutch as a game ending 3-run HR with 2 out, 2 stikes, and down by 2? >>



Skin, saying the sample size is too small is one of the reasons your stats are not the way to judge a player in my honest opinion. While I appreciate your insight, we will always have to agree to disagree

Skinpinch

Stown, I judge players on thousands of samples.

The post seasons samples to show a player is not clutch is to small? Yes, if using just one or two players. HOWEVER, this is done with every player. Once you look at all the data, and not just Jeter, you see what is at work, simple randomness, not to mention simple logic. You need to measure every player and every set of data and measure it against any sort of consistency to see if some ability does exist.

A player who has shown a 'clutch' ability in X amount of games, has the same chance to show clutch ability in the next X amount of games, as a player who has shown to be a choker...relative to their ability of course.

You probably need to look at ALLL THE DATA, and maybe you will see this.

I cannot summarily dismiss it entirely as never existing. In fact, due to small sample size, a guy who is 3 for 25 in the post season may very well be more clutch than a guy who was 10 for 20. If this is true, then that shows the SHEER FOLLY of claiming a guy to be clutch based on what he did in the post season, as is what is typically the case in assigning players clutch or not.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS to take somebody's perception on a players clutch persona.

The logic portion is, if a player truly is clutch and could rise to the occasion, then why on earth does he not summon that ability and rise to the occasion all year?? Either he can't control it to any degree above what his ability is, or he is a moron for not using it.

Skinpinch

Also, to clarify for Win and others, the post season stats about Jeter I posted, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THEM!!! I posted them because the clutch backers believe in using flawed sample sizes. I am merely pointing out some other flawed sample sizes that disagree with their claims. If they believe in one, they cannot disregard the other! Yet that is what they do, they remember the good, and conveniently forget the bad.

WinPitcher

Hey skippy blow it out your butthole. You do not need to clarify anything for me.

I see right through you and your flawed way of using stats.

now take a hike.

I am.

Steve