Question Misplaced Mint mark's and "Phantom" MM's on Lincoln Cent's Edited to add pic's.

ozzysdad

I was wondering if anyone could explain about Mis-placed Mint mark's, and Phantom MM's. Before i post any picture's i would like to get some input from some of the expert's on this forum. It's on a key Lincoln Wheat Cent.

Thank's, ozzysdad.....

drwstr123

Post-then we'll talk.

19Lyds

From my limited knowledge, if by "phantom MM" you mean a mint mark that is barely visible, then your only talking about a grease filled die which could be considered common. But then it all depends upon the buyer. I am pretty sure that PCGS recognizes this as a true variety. Unless of course you are referring to the 22 plain or no D Lincoln.

For the misplaced MM's, at one time the branch mints punched their on MM at the branch mint and these could wander all over the place. I am not certain of the time it occured but Philadelphia began placing the MM on dies prior to sending them to the branch mints to eliminated a lot of the MM varieties which would include large, small, RPM's and over punches.

Now, got some pics?

WaterSport

Ask me this question in about three months when I have finally moved, bought a house, and got all my coin stuff unpacked. I have a couple of “phantom” mint marks cents and it is noted on their PCI holders. I have not seen any other holder note this. The coins are, I think 2000 and 2001. I also have a copy of a letter from the Mint a collector I bought one of the coins from. Again, not having the letter in front of me, I think the Mint admitted grinding off the mint mark leaving a slightly raised bump. And I do mean slightly raised. We are not talking very weak “D” 1922 cents here, I am talking it is only visible with intense light and properly angled to catch it. I thought the concept was all BS myself until I got a copy of that letter which I will be happy to share once I get my hands on it.

WS

Mercfan

I found a neat series of three 1916-S Lincolns: one with the "S" in the normal position; one with the "S" up high and tight to the date; and one with the "S" way down low. Obviously there's some variability in the location of mintmarks punched by hand, and these struck me as extraordinarily illustrative of the range of that variability.

I'll see if I can shoot them and post them this weekend.

I also have an interest in phantom mint marks, since I have a nice roll of 1909 VDBs on which I'm having a darn tough time seeing the "S" mint marks.

Conder101

The "phantom" mintmarks were on the Lincoln cents beginning I believe around 1998 and I know they lasted through at least 2000. The reason for their existance was that the Phildelphia mint still makes the Master dies for all three mints. For the cent, as a time and money saving measure, they only made one master hub from the model. This was the D mint master hub.

After producing the master dies for Denver the mintmark was then ground off the hub and it was used as the master hub for the Philadelphia mint. In 1998 and 1999 the grinding was not quite deep enough and faint traces of the D mintmark remain visible. They aren't seen on all Philadelphia cents because later grinding and polishing of the master dies, working hubs,and working dies, plus wear from use of the dies means that the traces are only seen on a minority of the production.

In the case of the "phantom S" cents the grinding on the master hub went too deep and the traces of the grinding leave a shape that kind of looks like an S, but the S is not in the same place as where the S appears on the proof die. And since the S mintmark was in the oiginal model there is no way there would be two differnt locations for the S minkmark.

The "misplaced" mintmarks are caused because before 1985 all the mintmarks were punched into the working dies by hand using a mallet and a punch. Naturally the physical placement of the mintmark therefor tend to vary, sometimes considerably. Usually though they are only worth a premium if the mintmark is actually touching another design element. This variablity of the mintmark in position and stength is also the reason for repunched mintmarks when the dies sinker doesn't like the initial attempt.

Beginning in 1985 the mintmark began being placed on the original models that the reductins are taken from. That way all of the dies would have the mintmark in the same place and strength. In 1985 it was done for all the proof coin dies and gradually introduced to the dies for the circulation coins. By 1990 all of the mintmarks were on the original models.

ozzysdad

Pic's as promised........ozzysdad....

ozzysdad

TWQG

It's getting kind of sad.

eyoung429

And here I thought that this would get interesting. How about this for starters....

pharmer

Don't see anything there. When I started looking for varieties, non-existant ones kept popping up until I started finding real ones with regularity. Once that happens, it's easy to give your imagination a break and focus on the real ones, of which there are many to be found.

JRocco

Pharmer makes a lot of sense here. There is no mintmark on that coin. There are a lot of nice varieties to be found out there so keep looking.