Scottish 2d puzzler

Sapyx

I just bought this coin from a local dealer at our annual coin show, who sells more than a few ancient and mediaeval and usually knows what he's talking about. It's a Scottish copper twopence, dating from some time shortly after James VI of Scotland became James I of England. Coins of this type were struck both under James and his son Charles.

Obverse: 3-headed thistle plant
Legend (as near as I can make out): CA(rol?)VS.D.G.MAG.BRIT.RIT


Reverse: lion rampant, two pellets
Legend: FRAN.&.HI(b.re)X.FR


I don't have a good Scottish reference; all I've got is Krause and an old copy of Friedberg. My trouble is, there seems to be something wacky going on with the legend - some doubling on both sides, with RIT and FR appearing twice. THe monarch's name is ambiguous, too - there isn't really enough room between the CA and VS for the letters ROL. The coin was purchased as a "James VI" coin, but I just can't make his name fit the legend.

Is this a recorded variety, a bogus coin, or was this mint worker just having a bad day at the office when he made these dies? And is it James VI or Charles I? Any ideas?

UncleWiggly

I hope we can find out because this stuff interests me. You know, there is a forum run out of England somewhere. Maybe someone would know on that board.



Jerry

coachleonard

i do know that this is a period where there was a lot of crude craftsmenship going on, hence, legends and lettering may not be as clear as you'd like them to be

mojoman

Try Andy Bruce He has lots of English coin books and also sells older English type coins,I am sure he could help you out,MoJo

Teg

Hi,
Andy Bruce does have a lot of English coins - but this is Scottish!
Andy's name is about as Scottish as you can get - so he may still be a good bet.

This is not my specialist area so I am probably missing something!

Your dealer was correct - I think.

James VI of Scotland 1587 became James I of England in 1603 until his death in 1625.

A copper coinage was introduced to Scotland in 1597, these copper twopences or "turners",
copied the French double tournois closely, with a portrait of the king, but three thistle heads
instead of three lys on the reverse.
After James's accession in 1603 the coinage of England and Scotland became more similar.
(the Act Of Union between the two countries took place in 1707, and Scottish coins effectively
stopped in 1709)
(Another digression - James I introduced copper farthings to England in 1613 - partially due to the
success of these Scottish coins.)

Turners were struck in 1614 and 1623, these differ from those of 1597 in having a tripe-headed thistle
and lion rampant. If your coin is James it is the 1623 issue - the legends are shorter.

Charles I issued a large number of turners, the 1629 was similar to his Fathers. A much larger issue
of smaller turners commenced in 1632 and continued to 1639.

The difference between the James (IACOBVS) and Charles(CAROLVS) turners is the legend.
This should start just to the right of the top thistle - and end around 4 to 5 o'clock.

As you say the double striking makes this coin hard to read. I think what you are seeing as the C
of CAROLVS is the O of IACOBVS or CAROLVS (to make the rest of the legend fit).
If true then A that follows is either a B or a L. It looks slightly more like a B to me.

Neat coin.

Teg

rhound1977

Find, nice old copper, didn't know they went back that far......

ColinCMR

I like it!

1jester

<< <i>I like it! >>



Me too!!

Sapyx

Thanks, guys.

And thanks, Teg, for the background info. I was wondering why these little guys were called "turners". Now I know!