Ichiro overrated? hah
Axtell
Posts: 10,037 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
Anyone who wants to think of this guy is overrated, simply needs to catch the throw he made tonight from right field, clear in to home plate, to throw out a runner. No cut off man, nothing, just a clean heave from right field to home plate to nail the runner trying to score.
That's why he wins gold gloves, that's why he's an all star, and that's why he'll be a Mariner his entire career.
Oh, by the way, he's on pace to (again) get over 200 hits, is batting above .300.
That's why he wins gold gloves, that's why he's an all star, and that's why he'll be a Mariner his entire career.
Oh, by the way, he's on pace to (again) get over 200 hits, is batting above .300.
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Steve
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Thank you WP, for finally agreeing!
you mean we have agreed all this time? why then have you argued with me? trouble distinguishing through that cement head you have?
You claimed Ichiro was NOT overrated, then gave examples
I said...sounds alot like jeter.
yes we agree, both are NOT overrated?
is that it?
Steve
more exxageration from dopey.
20 times?
yeah ok.
you are infatuated with the guy. if anything you mention him 20 times a day here.
get a grip.
I have not seen Jeter in a commercial here in NY for sometime.
if he is on espn it is for doing just what you claimed Ichiro did. made a great play.
grow up and stop crying that jeter gets too much press. it is beginning to bore people.
Edited to add: and if jeter made such a play you would have come on here and made some stupid claim that he should have hit the cutoff man. That he was showboating trying to show people he is better then he is and could have torn a rotater cuff.
ohh and go and change that diaper it is beginning to smell around here.
Steve
<< <i>I have not seen Jeter in a commercial here in NY for sometime. >>
I saw 2 commercials. one was the ford auto. the 2nd I don't quite remember for whom ( scene was in the gym -- did not see a lot of this commercial).
Steve
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>oh my gracious. Derek Jeter has the GALL to be involved in two local commercials. Well spank my children and sell the farm .
Commericals aren't even the reason I call him overrated.
It's people like YOU who go ga-ga over every tiny thing he does, and the fact that this 'intangibles' myth that's been perpetuated by the national media in hopes of saving baseball by creating fake idols.
All the while he's collecting tens of millions of dollars for being an average to below average fielder, hit .300, with little pop in his bat.
How much pop does slappy ichiro have?
Steve
<< <i>I was right! you are infatuated with him.
How much pop does slappy ichiro have?
Steve >>
You were right in FINALLY agreeing that Jeter is overrated. Look, dude, admission is one of the first steps to recovery. I knew you could do it!
Ichiro routinely turns singles into double by stealing bases, something Jeter doesn't do.
In addition, Ichiro is truly a gold glove winner, where Jeter wins it by default since (a) Arod moved to third and (b) he plays in NY. It's been proven he wasn't the best defensive SS. But then, you don't want to hear about those stupid things called FACTS, do you?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Axtell - "Ichiro, oh Ichiro where for art thou my Ichiro."
<< <i> with little pop in his bat. >>
and in his pants too
.couldn't resist
actually, i do not care what you think.
Steve
On ignore.
Steve
<< <i>All the while he's collecting tens of millions of dollars for being an average to below average fielder, hit .300, with little pop in his bat. >>
.344, actually, and Ichiro is hitting what... .308? 5 homers to Ichiro's 1---2 triples, Ichiro has 3---11 doubles to 4.
<< <i>Ichiro routinely turns singles into double by stealing bases, something Jeter doesn't do. >>
Which makes Ichiro have 69 total bases to Jeter's 86.
And on a career level, they both average 303 total bases a year--Well, actaully, that extra .326 of a base per year must be what makes Ichiro such a better player than Jeter.
Oh, career OBP--Jeter .387, Ichiro .377
Looking for Jonny Gomes cards, especially Triple Threads and printing plates. Will consider all cards, though. Got something? Contact me at c_u_l_1@yahoo.com
<< <i>I don't go ga ga over anybody you IDIOT. I just knock teeth out when Jeter is called out with all of this bull$hit. Why don't you try and find a thread where I or ANY Yankee fan has gone ga ga over Jeter??? Go ahead RETARD try and find pom pom waving Jeter thread that i ever started you a$$hole >>
haha I guess I really struck a nerve with the middle aged crisis thing, huh softy?
How's that new sports car purchase working out for you?
I do not think anyone anywhere would ever confuse him with Ty Cobb.
maybe Lee J Cobb
Steve
Ichiro choked against the Yanks in the ALCS Hardcore, so according to your methodology, he is NOWHERE NEAR AT THE LEVEL OF DEREK JETER! Again, according to your own methodology, Derek Jeter has had good post season success, has every intangible imaginable, and has HOW MANY RINGS? It can't be both ways. If Jack Morris is great by virtue of Post Season 'wins', then so is Jeter, and then Ichiro is NOT(nor Cobb, Williams etc...)
O.K. How many rings does Ichiro have?
Aren't you the dope who said..."Last I saw, stats do not win championships, unless you do the fantasy sport thing, BTW, Jack Morris and his "crappy" stats won 3 World Series."
Now in this thread, you cite Ichiro's stats as an example of not being overrated. Make up your mind please.
Speaking of Cobb, according to you methodology Hardcore, there are HUNDREDS of better hitters than Cobb, for Cobb simply could not get it done when it counted most. Three chokes, yes, three chokes.
Again, aren't you the fella who said, "the main #1 stat is, when EVERYthing is on the line, meaning, winning the championship, who stepped up to the plate and took it?"
Breaking it down, Cobb failed miserably all three times in the WS, so why on earth are you even referring to him as if he is an all-time great or something? According to your own methods, if Jack Morris is viewed as great, then Cobb must not be. It cannot be both ways.
Next time you speak, please inform us of which side of your mouth you will be using.
By the way, a TEAM WIN is a stat too, it is simply a vastly uninformative stat when assessing an individual player. So you do use stats, but simply use the ones that are least informative for what you are trying to accomplish.
<< <i>Commericals aren't even the reason I call him overrated.
It's people like YOU who go ga-ga over every tiny thing he does, and the fact that this 'intangibles' myth that's been perpetuated by the national media in hopes of saving baseball by creating fake idols. >>
QUESTIONS??????????????????
How many World series RINGS does Derek Jeter have?
How many World series games has Derek Jeter played in (and very well I might add............)?
How many World series MVPs has Derek Jeter been awarded?
ok, now
How many World series RINGS does Ichiro have?
How many World series RINGS does Ichiro have?
How many World series MVPs has Ichiro been awarded?
and lastly
What are the chances that Derek Jeter will Play in, or better yet WIN this years WS?
What are the chances that Ichiro will play in, or better yet WIN this years WS?
seems to me, arguing over whether or not Ichiro is good, bad, overated or underrated is pointless when the team he is on cant win against the top Little league teams!
That is excactly why Arod left the Rangers to go to NY.
being the best player on a Terrible team has to suck pretty bad.
<< <i>QUESTIONS??????????????????
How many World series RINGS does Derek Jeter have?
How many World series games has Derek Jeter played in (and very well I might add............)?
How many World series MVPs has Derek Jeter been awarded?
ok, now
How many World series RINGS does Ichiro have?
How many World series RINGS does Ichiro have?
How many World series MVPs has Ichiro been awarded?
and lastly
What are the chances that Derek Jeter will Play in, or better yet WIN this years WS?
What are the chances that Ichiro will play in, or better yet WIN this years WS?
>>
This would be relevant if Jeter was the only one playing on his team. As it is, he's one of a roster of men who make up the yankees. So talking about his rings is not valid.
Instead, why not talk about things you can compare.
How many Gold Gloves has Jeter won, in comparison to Ichiro?
How many times has Jeter won a batting title, in comparison to Ichiro?
How many league MVP awards has Jeter won, in comparison to Ichiro?
How many times has Jeter led the league in hits, in comparison to Ichiro?
Now that you have eliminated the TEAM from comparing two PLAYERS, you can now get a better grasp on their overall worth.
<< <i>seems to me, arguing over whether or not Ichiro is good, bad, overated or underrated is pointless when the team he is on cant win against the top Little league teams! >>
Yes, his team could only muster the major league record for wins in 2001, right sparky?
<< <i>That is excactly why Arod left the Rangers to go to NY.
being the best player on a Terrible team has to suck pretty bad. >>
Arod didn't leave Texas on his own, he was traded so they could afford more quality players. As many have noted, the Rangers got significantly better the year after Arod left.
Perhaps you should have a better grasp of understanding baseball before try posting here.
lol
Steve
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Steve
And WP, what happened to your promise to ignore me? I thought I wasn't going to have to put up with your mindless posts anymore.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I thought I was replying to dan.
Steve
<< <i>Hardcore, if stats don't mean anything and only "who wins' does, then why on earth do you mention how many hits Ichiro has, or what his batting average is??
Ichiro choked against the Yanks in the ALCS Hardcore, so according to your methodology, he is NOWHERE NEAR AT THE LEVEL OF DEREK JETER! Again, according to your own methodology, Derek Jeter has had good post season success, has every intangible imaginable, and has HOW MANY RINGS? It can't be both ways. If Jack Morris is great by virtue of Post Season 'wins', then so is Jeter, and then Ichiro is NOT(nor Cobb, Williams etc...)
O.K. How many rings does Ichiro have?
Aren't you the dope who said..."Last I saw, stats do not win championships, unless you do the fantasy sport thing, BTW, Jack Morris and his "crappy" stats won 3 World Series."
Now in this thread, you cite Ichiro's stats as an example of not being overrated. Make up your mind please.
Speaking of Cobb, according to you methodology Hardcore, there are HUNDREDS of better hitters than Cobb, for Cobb simply could not get it done when it counted most. Three chokes, yes, three chokes.
Again, aren't you the fella who said, "the main #1 stat is, when EVERYthing is on the line, meaning, winning the championship, who stepped up to the plate and took it?"
Breaking it down, Cobb failed miserably all three times in the WS, so why on earth are you even referring to him as if he is an all-time great or something? According to your own methods, if Jack Morris is viewed as great, then Cobb must not be. It cannot be both ways.
Next time you speak, please inform us of which side of your mouth you will be using.
By the way, a TEAM WIN is a stat too, it is simply a vastly uninformative stat when assessing an individual player. So you do use stats, but simply use the ones that are least informative for what you are trying to accomplish. >>
Stats do NOT win championships, you are indeed correct, and the Mariners have not won any yet. Ichiro may not have 50 HR numbers, but he is the best slap ball hitter I have seen, not too many can turn an infield groundball into a base hit! Pete Rose was not exactly setting the world on fire with HRs either, and the highest average Pete ever had was .348. And, when I say stats are overanalyzed, they are, only certain people can detect sarcasm in any form. Stats are looked at, flipped and rotated, inside and out, in ways that one person can say one player is better than the other. EVERYone would take Ichiro on their team, he can turn an infield single into a double with a stolen base, Ichiro does have the intangibles other athlete's do NOT have. Is Ichiro the greatest ever, NO, is he a great player, YES, is he overrated, NO, would he be considered a king if he was a Yankee, YES. any talk about Ichiro being overrated is purely because of the team he plays on, not because of his efforts or skills!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Ichiro choked against the Yankees in the ALCS a few years ago, a couple games, 5 games actually, yet, Ichiro had 16 hits in 38 postseason at bats (this is sarcasm if you can detect it). The Yankees choked against Boston in the ALCS also, no GREAT team will lose a 3-1 lead, but I suppose the Yankees were just being nice, and let them win, eh! Jack Morris did not choke in too many postseason games, yet, he is not too much of a Hall of Famer in anyone's book! That is the way things go!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Jeter is a very good highly over -rated slap hitter. Very good player but gets too much praise for his actual worth. Thus OVER - RATED >>
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
/snore
Oh, were you saying something sparky? Nothing of importance I am sure.
Hardcore, using hit totals as a criteria is a terribly faulty analysis(as your sarcasam actually agrees wtih). Using only 38 games to develop a conclusion is also terribly faulty as it is not nearly enough games to draw any meaningful conclucsion whatsoever. You seem to recognize that...except you seem to ignore it when using three good starts to proclaim Jack Morris a post season God.
I say again, you seem to use stats to defend your position, but you are simply using the wrong ones to determine an individual players true worth. Any datum that can be measured numerically is a statistic. A WS win is a stat as it can be measured numerically. A post season win is a stat, and so is every other result. However, most of those stats do absolutely nothing in giving a valid measurement of a players true worth. But there are measurements that come extremely close to determine it.
So on one hand you use stats, but disregard the fact that the stat you are using has terrible validity. Then on the other hand you discount measurements with very strong validity, only because it does not jive with your emotional attachment to a hero. I think that sums it up. That pretty much sums up any bias sports fans.
I'm not bias, and I stick wit things that are valid, and not based on emotion...it tends to make one more accurate doing it that way
Ichiro is only overrated when people say he is the best hitter in the game, or among the all time best(as I've heard said). He would be an asset to any team, but people tend to get a little overboard on him too. You can't be overrated unless you know exactly where is being rated.
I've often said that in Jeter's case people call him overrated so often, that he is actually UNDER rated. The man is darn good. No, he isn't as good defesnively as NY fans claim, but the man can handle shortstop AND is excellent offensively.
<< <i>Let me ask this, on the long list of great shortstops, where would Jeter's career talk be, if he never played with the Yankees? >>
That question more or less summarizes the two different languages being spoken in this thread, and why you and skinpinch are no closer to agreement than you were at the beginning.
How would Jeter be rated if he had played his career with the Devil Rays? Two different answers: (1) Most people, yourself included based on what I have read in this thread, would rarely if ever have given him a second thought, and he would definitely not be headed for the HOF; (2) a much smaller group of people, skinpinch included, would rate him exactly in the same place that they rate him now, and - if the people who vote for the HOF were not mostly baseball idiots - he would probably be heading for the HOF someday.
These are the two ways players usually get rated, one based largely on how good a players teammates are, and the other based solely on how good the player himself is. Jeter is probably overrated by the people who use the first method (Jack Morris is among the most overrated players in history by this method), but he is and always has been rated correctly by the second method.
Actually there is a third method, the one Axtell used, which is somewhere in between: go through two players stats and pick out the ones that help your side and ignore the ones that hurt your side. If each side of the Ichiro/Jeter debate did that and went back and forth a few times it would become fairly clear after awhile that, in fact, the two players are very similar. Ichiro has a higher batting average, steals more bases and (to the degree we can compare infielders and outfielders with any certainty) probably fields better than Jeter. Jeter gets on base more by walk or HBP and has significantly better power. It strikes me that when one side insults the other side's player they are indirectly insulting their own guy - there is not much difference between them in terms of overall value.
A) Everyone else (save, at present, Kazmir and Gomes) would be outshined by him, giving him all-star berths every year he played there.
Looking for Jonny Gomes cards, especially Triple Threads and printing plates. Will consider all cards, though. Got something? Contact me at c_u_l_1@yahoo.com
I heard or saw jeter maybe 3 times and if that (whenever they did the yankee/met recap).
So for those that insist that he is on 20 times a day are simply delusional.
The only thing he is on 20 times a day is in thier mind.
Steve
so therefore any comment that he is constantly on (or 20 times a day) is a blatant lie or a delusion.
Steve
<< <i>Yes I did.
so therefore any comment that he is constantly on (or 20 times a day) is a blatant lie or a delusion.
Steve >>
You didn't sleep for 2 days straight? good one!
I was here arguing with you.
now back to the crux of many problems here on the board.
my first statement was:
I had espn on almost the whole weekend.
The key word being ALMOST.
You as is your way had to call me out and make the idiotic statement:
Wow you watched 48 straight hours of ESPN?
had you read what I said and then gave it the slightest of thought you would have not made that statement. (I hope anyway)
I simply played along.
Steve
Steve
<< <i>my first statement was: I had espn on almost the whole weekend.
The key word being ALMOST.
You as is your way had to call me out and make the idiotic statement: Wow you watched 48 straight hours of ESPN?
had you read what I said and then gave it the slightest of thought you would have not made that statement. (I hope anyway) >>
steve, I am not sure he is smart enough to read and comprehend anything,
much less to understand your explanation!
but points for playing along with him.
retarded kids need friends too
<< <i>Yes hardcore we could tell by the way you reply.
Steve >>
Just watch in the future, I can get dumber than Jim Carrey!