Hey, anyone want to take a class on colonial coins?

Pistareen

Hey all --

A lot of you have heard about the ANA Summer Seminar, one of the real benefits of membership if you're a member of the organization. In two one-week sessions, members from all over the U.S. and the world (including Australia, the Far East, Europe, and Canada in years past) get together to study coins, learn something new, make friends, and generally relish the chance to be unjudged coin geeks for a week while basking in the sunshine at 6000 feet. I've gone every year since 1991 and been teaching since 2000. It is the highlight of my year.

The past several years, I've co-instructed a course on early American coins, medals, and paper money with Erik Goldstein, the curator of mechanical arts and numismatics at Colonial Williamsburg. We have a lot of fun, laugh a lot, and impart an awful lot of information in the process.

This year enrollment is lagging a bit, I'm told by the ANA. So if anyone is looking for something to do July 1 to July 7, or has already decided to attend but doesn't know what to take, I'd invite you to join our class. You won't regret it!

For more info, email or PM me here, or check out the ANA's website at http://www.money.org/Content/NavigationMenu/ExploretheWorldofMoney/SummerSeminar/default.htm

Thanks!

Longacre

Sounds like a great time! Unfortunately I will not be able to attend. I used up all of my political capital to attend the Baltimore show, and I dare not seek another furlow from Mrs. Longacre to attend a coin class in CO.

RYK

I am with Longy. I blew my annual coin trip going to the Atlanta ANA. One of these years I will surely attend the ANA summer course.

Coinosaurus

That sounds like a lot of fun.

I regret to report that my wife recently noticed that I have been spending all my vacation time on coin trips

Longacre

<< <i>I regret to report that my wife recently noticed that I have been spending all my vacation time on coin trips >>




I hear you, man. I always get, "you never seem to be able to take time off to do things with the family, but you always seem to be able to take a day off to go to a coin show or play golf."

airplanenut

I took the class on money of the American Revolution that John taught with Ken Bressett the first year I flew out... I had a blast and learned a ton... John and Ken had a headache

If you're thinking about the Seminar, do it... all coin geeks, all week... so much knowledge and so many great people. I've now been three times, but will be curing cancer instead of flying out this year

kranky

This brought back a memory from the first time I went to the Summer Seminar. I was hanging out in the ANA Library the day I got to Colorado Springs, reading Kessler's book on Fugio cents (I was psyched about actually seeing the book, I had only heard of it up to that point) and sitting a couple chairs away was Ken Bressett (editor of the Red Book) and Pistareen, talking up a storm about contemporary colonial counterfeits. Up until that point, living in my isolated little world, I thought I knew a fair amount about coins. Wrong! I just sat there amazed at what these guys knew. I pretended to read the Kessler book a while longer while kind of eavesdropping. That really opened my eyes to how much there is to learn. I hope Pistareen will forgive me for my lack of etiquette!

To hang out for a whole week talking coins with people who are experts who are eager to teach you - it was a blast. If you have the chance, do it.

Oldnewbie

In a heartbeat, but the logistics would be tough for me.

Shamika

<< <i>In a heartbeat, but the logistics would be tough for me. >>


Ditto!

ColonialCoinUnion

PM sent.

Trime

Pistareen,
I would love to take the class but will be attending the second session where I will take my annual advanced grading class. I got interested in your topic last year when Bob Rhue spent a session grading colonials. I was so delighted by the coins I forgot about the grading aspects. Maybe this will be last year in the grading semminar for a while and next year I would like to learn more about colonials.

Merc

It sounds nice. It is just hard to get away from work for a week to learn about coins.

Pistareen

Anyone else?

I bet a lot of you take the time to get off work for coin shows -- it's too bad that a week of education is not as high a priority as coin buying. Since it starts on a Saturday and is over the July 4th holiday, it's really no more days off than a long weekend. Would it sweeten the pot if I mentioned that there is a decent sized 2 day coin show in Colorado Springs immediately after the session? Or that more buying/selling/trading takes place over beers and scotch at night than happens at a mid-sized bourse?

I understand it's hard to get away from work and family for a solid week at the height of summer -- but I know of no one who has done it than has regretted it! This is not intended as a judgement on those that can't get away. The one year I neither taught nor attended class at the Seminar, it was because I couldn't get the time off work. Luckily, I worked in Colorado Springs at the time, so I could still enjoy the nighttime social aspects.

Longacre

<< <i>Or that more buying/selling/trading takes place over beers and scotch at night than happens at a mid-sized bourse? >>




I prefer Crown Royal manhattans. Will those be allowed if I attend and want to do some buying and selling?

Coinosaurus

<< <i>I bet a lot of you take the time to get off work for coin shows -- it's too bad that a week of education is not as high a priority as coin buying. >>



Pistareen-

Does time on the PCGS board count as "education"? If so, I assure you most of us are spending much more time on "education" than on actual buying

The thing is, for most of us I presume, buying/selling is concentrated at the big shows, while consuming all matter of literature in between.......

novacaesarea

Hi Pistereen,

I would love to attend. In fact the last time I thought about going was the year that Eric Newman and Tom Rinaldo taught the course (a long time ago I think). Unfortunately, July 4 weekend is just too tough to get away for.

I know the ANA used to do a Colonial Coin program in Williamsberg, Virginia. I drove down to it with CCU's business partner after a Baltimore Show. It was a lot of fun. Is that program still being offerred?

novacaesarea

Conder101

Pistareen, I would love to take the classes but I can't take two weeks off from work, pay for the transportation there and back plus the fees for the two weeks of the seminars. It would just cost me too much. It would wipe out more than half of my numismatic budget for the year.

Pistareen

Nova C: There has been talk of doing the CW tour/seminar again but nothing solid. They're planning a massive exhibition of their collection for 2007-2008 I believe, so maybe something will happen then. By the way, do we know each other? I have this sneaking suspicion we do.

Conder -- I'd love to have you in the class! Each session is only one week though -- would that make it easier to come join us?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Pistareen

I would love to take your course.Do I have to be a member of the ANA ? I am not and have no desire to join.
Can you elaborate what is is exactly that you teach ? Does your mother also participate in teaching about Colonials coins?How come Tony Terranova does not teach the course ?

Stewart

Pistareen

Stewart:

Troublemakers are encouraged to attend. Now, to each of your questions so I can avoid cataloguing an unattractive early American coin:

1) You can still attend if you're not a member, but the difference in price for non-members is way more that the dues.

2) There is a lengthy description on the ANA website, but basically Erik Goldstein and I spend a day talking about the early American economy, trade in the 18th century, and start talking about foreign coins that circulated here. On the way, jokes are shared, stories are told, and raw coins are fondled. As the week goes on, we talk about most of the colonials in the Redbook and some that aren't. We tell you which ones are in the Redbook but shouldn't be, and which ones aren't but should be. We talk about grading, varieties, archaelogical evidence. counterfeits made for circulation, counterfeits made to snooker coin geeks, and counterfeits Erik and I made ourselves in the Colonial Williamsburg foundry (don't worry -- they're foreign and it's legal). We talk about colonial currency and fiscal paper, how it was used and how to collect it. If there is time left, we dig into Betts medals, especially those with historic importance. It's a lot of info, questions and side-tracking are encouraged, and everyone comes away happy most often.

3) Mom used to run the Summer Seminar. Once upon a time, she was along as my non-numismatic chaperone because my dad didn't like 12-year-old Johnny traveling alone. She was around enough that ANA offered her a job, but now she's in a different department. Seminar's not really her thing anymore, though she will be there.

4) Do you really think Tony can talk for a week without cursing? It's hard enough for Erik and I to do it!

Stewart -- you'd love it. Come hang out for a week. I'll bring some goodies from my own collection that only get shown once a year.

Conder101

<< <i>Conder -- I'd love to have you in the class! Each session is only one week though -- would that make it easier to come join us? >>


Not really, because If I was going to go all the way out there for your class the first week (And the Conder token mini seminar) I would definitely stay over for he second week for the Advanced Early American Copper Coinage seminar (and the Numismatic Grandour of King George III mini seminar) the second week. If I go for one week, I'd go for both.

novacaesarea

Hi Pistereen,

Yes, I would say that we know each other. We share a passion for historic Numismatically related documents. I also beleive you have commented on more than one ocassion about how challenging I am to sell to <s>.

Oh yes, I guess by the screen name you can also tell that I collect New Jersey Coppers among other things.

Best,

novacaesarea

novacaesarea

Pistareen,

Just for fun, I would be curious to hear (read) maybe three items you think should not be in the Colonial Section of the Redbook and three that should. I will kick it off just for fun. Exclude the Voce Populi series and include Louis d' or Mirltons from the Le Chameau Shipwreck.

Best

novacaesarea

Longacre

<< <i>Pistareen,

Just for fun, I would be curious to hear (read) maybe three items you think should not be in the Colonial Section of the Redbook and three that should. I will kick it off just for fun. Exclude the Voce Populi series and include Louis d' or Mirltons from the Le Chameau Shipwreck.

Best

novacaesarea >>




This thread is getting way over my head.

ColonialCoinUnion

I've often wondered why various patterns are included in the colonial section. To be consistent, the entire Judd book should be squeezed inside the Redbook.

shirohniichan

There is a lengthy description on the ANA website, but basically Erik Goldstein and I spend a day talking about the early American economy, trade in the 18th century, and start talking about foreign coins that circulated here. On the way, jokes are shared, stories are told, and raw coins are fondled. As the week goes on, we talk about most of the colonials in the Redbook and some that aren't. We tell you which ones are in the Redbook but shouldn't be, and which ones aren't but should be. We talk about grading, varieties, archaelogical evidence. counterfeits made for circulation, counterfeits made to snooker coin geeks, and counterfeits Erik and I made ourselves in the Colonial Williamsburg foundry (don't worry -- they're foreign and it's legal). We talk about colonial currency and fiscal paper, how it was used and how to collect it. If there is time left, we dig into Betts medals, especially those with historic importance. It's a lot of info, questions and side-tracking are encouraged, and everyone comes away happy most often.

I'd love to attend the class. Here are my excuses: 1) I can't take the time off work for ANA classes; 2) my second daughter is due on July 13, so I'll need all my vacation time to help with the little one (see 1).

Do you recommend any books that discuss foreign coins (especially silver) that circulated in the colonies with an emphasis on archeological finds? I printed an article on pistareens I found on the web a few years back, and I really enjoyed the information.

novacaesarea

Hi Shirohniichan.....,

Maybe start with Phillip Mossman's, Money of the American Colonies and Confederation. Maybe also consider Joseph Lasser, The Coins of Colonial America. Finally, Menzel, Cobs, Pieces of Eight and Treasure Coins.

Best,

novacaesarea

Longacre

<< <i>Hi Shirohniichan.....,

Maybe start with Phillip Mossman's, Money of the American Colonies and Confederation. Maybe also consider Joseph Lasser, The Coins of Colonial America. Finally, Menzel, Cobs, Pieces of Eight and Treasure Coins.

Best,

novacaesarea >>




I added those to my "list" too. Thanks.

novacaesarea

One more thought,

Contact the American Numismatic Society in New York, join (if you have not already), and get a subscription to the Colonial Newsletter (CNL). You can also get a CD of all back issues of CNL (dating back to 1960) for under $100.

If you are at all interested in Colonial Coins and their history, I can not think of a better investment than copies of Crosby, Mossman, and the CNL.

JMHO,

novacaesarea

novacaesarea

CCU,

That is a tough one. It would be hard to contemplate excluding the New York patterns, the New Jersey Patterns, the Rosa and Hibernia Patterns, possible patterns like the Silver Saint Patricks, certain Fugios etc. etc.

Or are you saying all Patterns should be in the Redbook?

It has been a long while since I looked at Judd. Does he include the Colonial Patterns?

Best,

novacaesarea

michael

i would like to take the course

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>CCU,

That is a tough one. It would be hard to contemplate excluding the New York patterns, the New Jersey Patterns, the Rosa and Hibernia Patterns, possible patterns like the Silver Saint Patricks, certain Fugios etc. etc.

Or are you saying all Patterns should be in the Redbook?

It has been a long while since I looked at Judd. Does he include the Colonial Patterns?

Best,

novacaesarea >>



I'm saying that I don't understand why colonial era patterns are in the Redbook, but 19th century patterns of US Federal coins are not.

Regulated

A small selection of Federal patterns are in the Redbook.

VermonAuctori

Hello all. Lion Dollars were heavily circulated here in the Colonial America's, especially in the New Amsterdam area. They certainly should be placed in the Red Book. All one needs to do is to check out Christie's 1989 catalog of the HMS Feversham.

I agree with Novacaesarea's take on having the Voce Populi's removed.

Probably most of the Washingtonia should be removed as well as they a lot of them did not circulate here.

Oldnewbie

Welcome, VermonAuctori!

Pistareen

Wow, look at the colonial geeks coming out in force! If you were all my class, I could just sit back and let y'all talk.

Nova -- I've figured you out. Why didn't you call yourself A. Hamilton or something? Open your PM function so I can tell you about something.

OK, some stuff I would toss out of the Redbook: The Rhode Island Ship medal. It's a Betts medal, an American-related propaganda piece struck in England for a Dutch audience to encourage them to stay out a treaty with Russia. OK, so it depicts the city of Newport, RI -- that makes it a supercool early American medal, but it's no more a coin that the hubcap on my old Buick.

There. I got that off my chest.

Other stuff -- the Franklin Press token is a conder with a tenuous American connection. The Auctori Plebis is a British evasion token that was somehow inspired by a Connecticut copper. Woods Hibernias (and their patterns) are an Irish coinage that circulated here in large numbers. So did every Irish halfpenny, French liard, and Spanish pistareen. It doesn't make them colonials. Rosa Americanas are obviously deserving of a spot still. I agree with Nova's comment on Voces for the same reason. I'm sure I could think of others.

What would I add? The 1749 halfpennies and farthings. About 25-30% of the mintage was shipped to Boston in 1750 -- over 800,000 halfpence. They turn up in Maryland fields as often as meadow muffins. They circulated widely on an official basis by Royal decree. What more do you need?

Nova's list of books is a good one. Some day you'll have mine.

novacaesarea

Pistareen,

I just figured out that I had setting adjustments. I just turned on the PM function (I think--if not e-mail me in the other group). I passed on the let others rate you function. More information than I think I want to know <s>.

BTW, I would probably disagree a bit on the Hibernias. I think after Irish rejection, they were purposely (if not officially) sent over here. Agree on the rest even though I really really like Rhode Island Ship Tokens.

novacasarea........a Hamiltonian

ColonialCoinUnion

Whoa there people -

Before anybody starts deleting the Hibernias and Rhode Island Ship Tokens, don't they need to define what their new version of the Redbook "should" contain?

Is it any coin produced in this country (or this land, I guess, before it was this country)?

Is it any coin which circulated here officially?

Is it any coin which circulated here unofficially? Someone once noted that modern Canadian coins should be included based on their general acceptance in American commerce.

Should counterfeits be included? Why are colonial era contemporary counterfeits included but not 19th or 20th century counterfeits?

Should patterns be included? Why are so many colonial era patterns included but only some (thanks Regulated) but not all federal patterns included?

Should medals be included? Should Conder tokens be included? Should coins made (seemingly) specifically for collectors be included?

And if only 'coins' should be included, whats a coin? Does it have to have a date on it? I 've heard some people make that argument.

Should coins of any of the preceding categories which circulated in Canada, or Bermuda or some other not-exactly-American-colonies be included?

I find tremendous inconsistencies in what is and isn't included in the colonial section, and then further inconsistencies between the criteria evidently applied in the colonial vs the federal sections.

Frankly, to start voting for things to be removed (or added) without defining what the criteria is seems to be putting the proverbial cart before the horse (or actually, in this case, even before the purchase of the horse).

Just my opinion.

VermonAuctori

Hi Colonial coin union. I don't think you will see any of the 19th and 20th century US counterfeits ever listed in the redbook due to the fact that quite a few were made to deceive collectors and were not made to enter commerce. ie 16-D dimes, 1877 Indians, etc. Anyway what do we care about 20th century coins..we are colonial geeks.<BG>

VermonAuctori

By the way CCU, it should not matter if for instance contemporary counterfeit halfpennies or the far more rarer contemporary counterfeit Spanish pistereen or Latin American two reales are ever listed in the Redbook as they are and always will be in great demand especially since some of these coins can be had for a song but in my opinion ,especially the two reales are worth a heck of a lot more. The contemporary counterfeit two reales are at least 50 to 100 times rarer than the counterfeit halfpenny.

Regulated

I have an idea - We can all figure out how the redbook really ought to look, and then we can collaborate on a Redbook of American Colonial Coins... Anyone up for the challenge?

kranky

<< <i>I have an idea - We can all figure out how the redbook really ought to look, and then we can collaborate on a Redbook of American Colonial Coins... Anyone up for the challenge? >>



Regulated's idea is wonderful. Clearly Whitman is eager to expand the Redbook line and that's an area with a lot of potential. And how cool would it be if it was done by a group of board members!

I don't have the requisite level of knowledge to contribute, but I would absolutely enjoy reading such a book.

Regulated

The beauty of it is that there could be appendices on the "almost rans" (conders, medals, etc...).

Pistareen

<< <i>on a Redbook of American Colonial Coins... Anyone up for the challenge? >>



I'm under contract from Whitman to author that exact book. It will get finished some day.

kranky

Do you think it will take a long time? Can I order one now so we can have a bunch of threads wondering if the Colonialpicker's Guide is ever going to see the light of day?

Pistareen

Kranky --

I was born 2 weeks late and I've been running behind ever since. I find that the book is kind of like cleaning my room when I was a kid -- the more I get pestered the less I want to do it! It will get done sometime, but for now the constant auction cataloguing makes it tough. Honestly, the market might have to slow down first, or I'll have to get a cabin in the woods for 3 months and live like Thoreau with my library.

I wish it was further along than it is. So does Whitman!

kranky

I know that writing can be painful. Wasn't it Red Smith who said "Writing is simple - you just put a blank piece of paper into your typewriter and stare at it until small drops of blood form on your forehead."? I guess that expression is painfully dated now.

You never picked up the secret to speedy authoring from QDB? I'm shocked!

Pistareen

QDB wakes up, writes, answers correspondence, writes, and sleeps. He's amazing! I really think he could write 18 hours a day, stay interested, and keep it fresh sounding.

I do not have that gift, sadly. Something tells me folks would let me take my time a bit more if Dave hadn't written 13 books while I've been puttering on this one!

Longacre

<< <i>QDB wakes up, writes, answers correspondence, writes, and sleeps. He's amazing! I really think he could write 18 hours a day, stay interested, and keep it fresh sounding.

I do not have that gift, sadly. Something tells me folks would let me take my time a bit more if Dave hadn't written 13 books while I've been puttering on this one! >>




Should I call QDB and tell him to give you a sabbatical? I think we need a good updated reference on Colonials (and I don't even collect them). I think a stand-alone book will do you good. QDB is not getting any younger (although I hope he lives to be 150 years old). We need the young guns to write more, in my opinion.

Coinosaurus

I used to think writing books was easy until I tried it myself....it is quite the eye opener.....I totally sympathize with Pistareen.......

Pistareen, my advice is this - do at least ONE thing everyday on the book. Even if is only a two minute thing. You can get some good momentum going that way.

novacaesarea

Pistareen, good luck with the book. We all will be better off once its completed and published.

CCU, I was thinking about the Pattern observation. I don't know much about Federal patterns, but in the case of Colonials, many of the patterns circulated as coinage dispite their not being official. As you know, during that era, most anything round and brown circulated as halfpennies.

Did Federal patterns circulate? I guess the only one I can think of off the top of my head is the the 1856 Flying Eagle Cent which did circulate and make the Redbook. I wonder if that is the general basis upon which patterns are rationalized. Anyway, just a thought.

Best,

novacaesarea