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Which team would you rather have heading into the playoffs?
Skinpinch
Posts: 1,531
in Sports Talk
1)Which of these two teams of players would you rather have heading into the playoffs?
C Dickey
1B Musial
2B Morgan
SS Wills
3B Schmidt
LF T. Williams
CF Mays
RF Cobb
OR.....
C Dempsey
1B J. Offerman
2B F. Vina
SS Cairo
3B Cuddyer
OF J. Johnstone
OF L McClendon
OF B. Hatcher
Based on their 'clutch' ability, and based on how most people value a clutch post season performer, most fans would have to take the second group as their team heading into the playoffs. After all, they are more clutch, and the others seem to fold when it counts.
Yes, the top list has a composite .232 lifetime post season batting average, and a .360ish lifetime post season slugging percentage.
Why would anybody go into a clutch battle with guys like that? Who cares what they did in the regular season all those years, when it mattered most they couldn't rise to the occasion.
NOW, how would you feel going into post season battle with a group of guys who hit a combined .366!!! And slugged in the neighborhood of .540!! That sounds like a good team! Yeah, thats what that second group did.
One would want this group as much as it would to prefer Vincent Gambini as their lawyer instead of the stuttering fool. Who wouldn't?
2)Another choice...how would you feel about this guy on your post season bench? Here are the totals of his ELEVEN playoff series...
.227 AVG, .298 OB%, .380 SLG%
3)Would anybody want the following player up to bat with Runners in Scoring Position in a post season game??
.211 AVG in WS, .214 in LCS, .200 in Division series
4)Is there anybody in the World that would not want the following guy to go to battle with(for big games) after he did this in the posteason....
20 Games
79 At bats
7 Home Runs
20 RBI
22 Runs
C Dickey
1B Musial
2B Morgan
SS Wills
3B Schmidt
LF T. Williams
CF Mays
RF Cobb
OR.....
C Dempsey
1B J. Offerman
2B F. Vina
SS Cairo
3B Cuddyer
OF J. Johnstone
OF L McClendon
OF B. Hatcher
Based on their 'clutch' ability, and based on how most people value a clutch post season performer, most fans would have to take the second group as their team heading into the playoffs. After all, they are more clutch, and the others seem to fold when it counts.
Yes, the top list has a composite .232 lifetime post season batting average, and a .360ish lifetime post season slugging percentage.
Why would anybody go into a clutch battle with guys like that? Who cares what they did in the regular season all those years, when it mattered most they couldn't rise to the occasion.
NOW, how would you feel going into post season battle with a group of guys who hit a combined .366!!! And slugged in the neighborhood of .540!! That sounds like a good team! Yeah, thats what that second group did.
One would want this group as much as it would to prefer Vincent Gambini as their lawyer instead of the stuttering fool. Who wouldn't?
2)Another choice...how would you feel about this guy on your post season bench? Here are the totals of his ELEVEN playoff series...
.227 AVG, .298 OB%, .380 SLG%
3)Would anybody want the following player up to bat with Runners in Scoring Position in a post season game??
.211 AVG in WS, .214 in LCS, .200 in Division series
4)Is there anybody in the World that would not want the following guy to go to battle with(for big games) after he did this in the posteason....
20 Games
79 At bats
7 Home Runs
20 RBI
22 Runs
0
Comments
Oh and if you mean Billy Hatcher for your OF (B. Hatcher), couldn't you find someone else that has more than a total of 14 post season games? Yes, his homer in the '86 playoff extra inning game against the Mets was CLUTCH but come on...
Or as he is known in Boston: "Awfulman?"
<< <i>)Which of these two teams of players would you rather have heading into the playoffs?
C Dickey
1B Musial
2B Morgan
SS Wills
3B Schmidt
LF T. Williams
CF Mays
RF Cobb
cobb, ted williams and dickey are dead......musial is 84....mays just turned 75..wills is 74...morgan is in his 60's and schmidt is the youngest one and he is in his 50's.
i think the other team would be more clutch also
you are comparing apples to monkees
<< <i>
C Dempsey
1B J. Offerman
2B F. Vina
SS Cairo
3B Cuddyer
OF J. Johnstone
OF L McClendon
OF B. Hatcher
>>
I don't know anybody who would honestly choose these guys. Why don't you tell us why you would select this group of players over the Hall of Fame players?
This is the most moronic comparison ever.
Steve
Pinch, you need to get you a woman.
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
You were saying?
Since Skin, for some odd reason, decided to create a new thread without having a conclusion to this one.
Those players who magically make themselves better because it is the post season must be some of the dumbest men on on earth, as they should apply that ability all year and get there every year. Why the heck couldn't Jose Offerman produce like that all the time and get his team more wins? Rick Dempsey, why did you save all of that clutchness for 1983 exclusively? Your team could have used that type of productivity during the entire 1982 season when they went down to the end with Milwaukee. Your team may have had another World Series on top of that one!
Using the post season numbers to proclaim somebody as clutch, would be like making a salary judgement on a player based on any random seven game stretch in the season. It all depends on when you catch him on how he will look. Randomness is the key factor at work.
If any poster ever says that so and so is not clutch, then they better darn well include all the HOFers on their list too! One fella lived hard with Jack Morris, but being a Tiger fan probalby isnt' ready to impune Ty Cobb for his poor World Series performance.
Derek Jeter's very poor post season hitting w/ men on base is simply ignored by the Jeter zealots because it shows that their perception is not quite as accurate as they would like to believe. If it is recognized or taken into account, then their hero isn't quite as big as they believe...and people do tend to see things they want to believe.
4)Is there anybody in the World that would not want the following guy to go to battle with(for big games) after he did this in the posteason....
20 Games
79 At bats
7 Home Runs
20 RBI
22 Runs
Before I continue with this thread lets take it point by point. I don't want any replies other than this question posted above. Is this man clutch? As a GM(knowing what he accomplished in the post season), is this a man you would want to go into battle with in the post season, as opposed to another player(who is equal or better in the regular season), but had poor post season numbers in the same amount(approximately) of games?
Thats annoying, isn't it?
Especially when the information is needed to be spoon fed to one, and then when upon special request, a hasty tabulation error occurs, and then one believes he thinks he can impune the accuracy of everything.
<< <i>.....TTT?
Thats annoying, isn't it?
Especially when the information is needed to be spoon fed to one, and then when upon special request, a hasty tabulation error occurs, and then one believes he thinks he can impune the accuracy of everything. >>
I wish I had read this prior to repling in another thread. First off, TTTing minutes after you post IS annoying. Notice a waited a day or two to "TTT" only AFTER you neglected THIS thread you started without a conclulsion?
Secondly, if you feel that you are needed to spoon feed anyone with your numbers, then don't post them. Probably 3 or 4 people give a hoot about your skewed way of thinking how to judge talent. This is the same person, who is a self-proclaimed numbers guy, messed up a stat by 10%! Just blowing it off as an after thought just proves your are a hyprocrite.
Finally, stop being a snug jerk. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong. Perhaps YOU are the one wrong.. Ever thought about that?
Yes, this post is kinda harsh but I make no apologies for it. Your attitude stinks and NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR NUMBERS!
My skewed way of judging?
I don't believe in those small post season sample sizes I posted, you dope!!! I am using all those small sample sizes about the post season because that is what you believe in. I am simply showing them to you, because since you believe in meaningless small sample sizes, then you MUST not disregard those just because they don't fit with your boyhood beliefs.
<< <i>I didn't mess any stat up by 10%, did you not read why that tabulation error occurred? In the haste to spoon feed a simpleton a request, I tabulated something twice. If that is your greatest pleasure of seeing me do a tabulation error, after getting all your heroes to reality, then so be it.
My skewed way of judging?
I don't believe in those small post season sample sizes I posted, you dope!!! I am using all those small sample sizes about the post season because that is what you believe in. I am simply showing them to you, because since you believe in meaningless small sample sizes, then you MUST not disregard those just because they don't fit with your boyhood beliefs. >>
Thank you for proving my point.
On a side note, you know the difference between a good statistition and an average one? A good one always provides sources and double, even sometimes triple, check their numbers prior to making an argument. Just messing up once, especially relying on someone else to point out the error, dimishes other people's perspective on their credibility. YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS BASED ON NUMBERS!!!! Puts a little doubt in their head... Perhaps he IS skewing the numbers... Maybe he added an extra zero there... What if he forgot to note it was coming off an injury here...
Do you know what 10% is in baseball?? That's batting .300 rather than .330! THAT'S HUGE!!
Finally, being an arrogant jerk doesn't make your point any more factual than the next guy's.
The quick points get enough checking for the venue here. I can live with a rare, and it is rare error even in my quick postings on this message board. How much time do you want me to waste on zealots? I have a budgeted time for that to amuse myself. I'm not going to go to great lengths in debates with zealots.
Again, it was a tabulation that I saw no need for in my initial look but only did it out of a request from you. I literally took that thing out of the garbage, and while I was being pulled in four different directions I was tabulating it. Since there wasn't any importance in the results you asked for, it didn't matter if there was an error. You see, THAT wasn't my point, MY POINT WAS accurate tabulations and all.
I though you were taking a hike??
he is hitting 115 in the first inn.
he is hitting 109 after the 7th inn
he is hitting 309 with no one on.
as of late, and in many instances when the game is on the line he has failed.
And because he is the MVP he gets more scrutiny.
not ridiculous at all.
Steve >>
Steve, this is the faulty goofy analysis I am talking about. You are using an extremely small sample that means nothing. Then I showed you some small samples to show that Jeter is not clutch either. This puts you at a crossroads. If the stuff you are saying about Arod is true, then so are the small sample sizes I put about Jeter in the postseason.
If the small sample sizes I put about Jeter are faulty and untrue, then so are the things you are saying about Arod. It can't be both ways.
That is why I posted the HOF lineup vs. the Post season 'clutch', and the Jeter Post season stuff.
P.S. Funny how the words "STATS", and "PROVEN" are used in the same sentence by you
People do not magically in pressure situations get better . some are just better in pressure filled moments and your continued refusal to believe this leads me to believe you dont watch very many sports or if you do you dont pay very much attention. you seem to be more impressed with numbers then the games themselves. Ball players are human beings just like us what makes you think they dont handle different types of pressure differently? And no making the big leagues is not the same type of pressure as game seven of a world series, not even close so you need a new argument there. Also when you find an example of a "clutch" guy failing in a "clutch" situation that doesnt mean the guy still isnt clutch he just wasnt on a particular occassion. Plus you should have used guys with more at bats for your two comparisons someone so into numbers should know you need a larger sample size then some of these guys post season stats will give you.
<< <i><<Pinch, you need to get you a woman. >>
Plus you should have used guys with more at bats for your two comparisons someone so into numbers should know you need a larger sample size then some of these guys post season stats will give you. >>
The reason why I posted that is because I am showing the folly of taking a guys post season performances, and labling him clutch as a result, or a choker due to poor times. The sample size isn't near enough to make that claim. In reality, a player who is 10 for 40 in the post season may be more clutch than a guy who is 20 for 40 in the post season. It just may be sample size that is making the second guy appear to be clutch. If a professional clutch player exists, his post season performance simply does not give a valid enough sample to prove it. Yet fans constantly claim so and so is clutch or choker by using thoe flawed sample sizes.
The next step is determining the proper sample size. A common sample size to detemine true ability is three seasons! 50 at bats gets you absolutely nowhere near close to any valid sample size. 250 at bats is not enough either....unless after this point a player is so far above his true ability that something may be determined. The farther they get along in at bats, the closer their numbers resemble towards their regular season totals. That should be a very telling statement. That is why batting titles aren't awarded in May.
I'm not saying that a clutch attribute can't exist. It can and does, but the level and degree is so small that even in its existence, it only makes small differecnce....a difference nowhere near the gap that fans commonly imply or flat out state.
In analyzing terms and projection terms, clutch doesn't have an effect. If I am going to project who is going to perform best in the post season next season, I will look at his body of work to make my projection. If you take the players past POST SEASON performance as your indicator, you will be in for hard times and an empty pocket book if you like to gamble! AND THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF EVEN BOTHERING WITH WHO IS THIS AND THAT(yes caps).
P.S. I am still finding it funny that people can't understand that a guy can be good at baseball, have good athletic ability overall, be able to watch more than needed....and still be able to be good at analyzing and stats. Dude I am married. Getting a woman would only get me in trouble.