Must be because he is a homosexual. That seems be what you are obsessed with. I remember when his dad passed away, all you guys on rcc did was make fun of him.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I sent an email to that little creep on safe harbor who wrote that letting people you know bid on your auctions is illegal, not only on ebay, but on all auctions online and offline. I cited a couple of references from auction school textbooks showing that this just isn't so, and could he provide legal citations.
So shill bidding is ok, right? It isn't fraud even if the people bidding have no notice that a seller is bidding, right Frank? Or shill bidding is not ok, but the definition of shill bidding is what you say it is, not what ebay says? Or what are you saying?
Same old, same old, Frank? Maybe you'll get some sympathy, maybe not, but it changes nothing. Still naru.
<< Can someone bid on Frank's behalf to get him back in the game and not screw up your auctions? >>
That would be allowing a NARU member to participate. If caught ebay would NARU you both for life, in all probability. They don't take kindly to NARU members circumventing the suspension. Otherwise, why bother suspending people if they can get around it?
No it's not. An auctioneer can lose his license for knowingly accepting shill bids. But ebay tries to define shill bidding as friends, family, or employees placing LEGITIMATE BIDS on items that they intend to pay for.
<< <i>It isn't fraud even if the people bidding have no notice that a seller is bidding, right Frank? >>
In some states there is the assumption that the sellers can bid unless its announced otherwise. Other states require an announcment that the seller "may" bid. If sellers mistakenly bid when they should not have been allowed to do so, the winning bidder may cancel the sale, or alternately accept the lot at one increment above the last proper bid.
<< <i> Or shill bidding is not ok, but the definition of shill bidding is what you say it is, not what ebay says? Or what are you saying? >>
It's an insincere bid made to drive up the price, with the bidder having no intention of actually completing the transaction. But since ebay claims not to be an auctioneer, "just a venue" how can ANY of the terms regulating auctions apply to something that's not an auction?
<< <i>Same old, same old, Frank? Maybe you'll get some sympathy, maybe not, but it changes nothing. Still naru.
Welcome to yahoo. >>
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I sent an email to that little creep on safe harbor who wrote that letting people you know bid on your auctions is illegal, not only on ebay, but on all auctions online and offline. I cited a couple of references from auction school textbooks showing that this just isn't so, and could he provide legal citations. I guess this is my payback....
Yeah, sure. It is all about persecuting you... Just because you are smarter than some little creep. Yeah that's it. You showed him up in an email and now it is vendetta time. Sure it is. The guy doesn't have a life so he is out to get you. Yeah. All because you, Super Auctioneer from Texas, smarter than any lawyer, better schooled from Autioneer School, are going to show him with a secondary source, not actual cases, but a school book, because you are above reading cases... Yeah, that's it. Super Frank, legal expert, when he tells you what the law is, well he is right because he is an auctioneer...Which as EVERYONE should know, is BETTER than being a lawyer or a judge... Right Frank? Corporate counsel for ebay better watch out. Sue em Frank! lol
Frank, if you don't want to look like a fool, quit pounding your chest and proclaiming what an expert you are in law, especially the UCC. Stick to something you know.
Why did you even write the email? You know EXACTLY what ebay's rules are. Roommates, not "people you know" or "friends" Frank.
And, if it is a vendetta, you brought it upon yourself. There was nothing to be gained by engaging the "little creep" in a battle of words.
Technically skilled people can spoof the number of the cell phone they call from, to use a third party's number. I frequently get calls from numbers which are identified as being out-of-service when I speed dial them back from my caller ID only minutes afterwards. From what I've been told it may be technically feasible to spoof one of eBay's telephone numbers.
I have two coins on eBay right now and Frank had bid on both of them. Ebay notified me that his bids were cancelled. My current high bid on one of the coins is now less than half of what it was with less than 24 hours to go. The ones they NARU aren't the only ones eBay is affecting with this type of action.
That's in interesting result of EBAY's actions that I hadn't considered. If I was a seller and the high bidders bid had been cancelled because of problems with their sales auctions...not because of their payment history...I would indeed be steamed. I don't think it's appropriate for an auction venue, which is all they purport to be, to unilaterally cancel bids by a bidder just because they are having a business dispute with the way he runs his own auctions.
I agree with the larger point that EBAY has went off the deep end NARUing Legend and other established dealers, but this latest incident points up that wholly innocent and uninvolved EBAY sellers are getting swept up and financially hurt by their actions.
Technically skilled people can spoof the number of the cell phone they call from, to use a third party's number. I frequently get calls from numbers which are identified as being out-of-service when I speed dial them back from my caller ID only minutes afterwards. From what I've been told it may be technically feasible to spoof one of eBay's telephone numbers.
I've been told this isn't a spoof so who to believe? eBay even NARUed Frank. Pretty elaborate spoof, huh?
Truth is, I don't think Frank nor Legend told us everything... But who cares?
Frank isn't trying to get advice, just sympathy. He is an expert at law. He is so good he didn't have to go to law school. If you don't believe me, just ask him. He took a six hour course on autioneering and now knows more than any mortal lawyer, judge or Supreme Court Justice.
I got the E-Bay call for IDs last year. They called and left a message with a phone and fax number. I called back and asked them to send the request via E-Mail (that would show up in my E-Bay My Messages section. Within 5 minutes I received the request there. Faxed a copy of my drivers license and life was good.
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
How long from when you received the phone call to when your account was suspended?
It seems that their is information missing from your claim here and that they simply phoned one time, followed up with an email to cancel and that was that.
If you received the phone call, and there was a follow up message in your Ebay "my messages" section (to verify the validity of the phone call), why didn't you forward them the information they requested?
Seems you would have saved yourself a lot of aggravation and embarrassment that way.
It seems we complain ad nauseum on this forum about all the unfair bidding practices on EBay which may or may not rise to the level of shilling. While I agree with Frank that EBay has taken some liberties in their definition of shilling, I would think the fact that someone at Ebay is even attempting to enforce their own rules is a positive. In the big picture bidders need to be assured that EBay's rules are being enforced or EBay will lose credibility. On the other hand if it has taken over a year to get a violator removed think of all the people who have overpaid because of bidders who as friends, roomates, or relatives have been keeping the prices pumped up. EBay needs to get its act together and not delay a full year wasting its time asking for records when they already have a reasonable basis to identify that their rules are being violated.
My two cents: Assume eBay's actions were purposeful and with full awareness of potential consequences. Assume these actions were as abrupt as portreyed here.
Then, a likely motivation is fear. What could ebay be afraid of? How about a pending class action lawsuit brought by victems of big-time fraudulent dealers on eBay, dealers eBay has not, up to now, done much of anything about so now they are trying to rapidly lay down a record of strict enforcement?
Just a stab in the dark........ Rob
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
BUMMER! I'm sorry to hear about that. My wife and started an online business in 1996 and used the bay to sell overstocks and odd stuff. Within a few months we saw more money coming from the bay than on our site. So, we started concentrating all of our efforts on posting auctions. We were up to an average of $800 to $1000 a month in fees and this was in the "old" days so fees weren't as high. Things were good until one day they decided that we had put our auctions in the wrong area and instead of an e-mail saying please move your stuff, they killed about $600 worth of auctions, no refund, no credit and no apology. We cried and b!*ched and moaned to no avail. We eventually gave in and started over only to have it happen again 6 months later. This time the reason was "friends" repeatedly buying from us. These people liked our products and always came back for more. So now we were being spanked for being successful. After this shutdown cost us even more money we gave up. We tried, yahoo, amazon, and other auction sites only to realize that NO ONE has the traffic that the bay has. We eventually took day jobs and shut everything down. We now buy and sell a few odds and ends on there but, really hate ourselves for allowing those turds to make even one more dollar on us. But again, no one has the traffic or diverse enough sellers to make other sites worth visiting.
Anyway, just a line to let you know I feel your pain.
I'll wait for Paul Harvey to show up so I can get the rest of the story. I don't know what happened with Frank, but I've seen members here consign their own coins to a member here to sell and then bid them up. I see members here bidding all the time of their friends listings with many having the intent to purchase if high bidder and other cases where they just throw in a bid. There appears to be in some folks minds a thin line between shilling and actually bidding. I think Marty handled his situation the right way. I can't imagine that if you ask ebay they won't email to "my messages" if you ask them to.
fyi, if you are in the telecom business, and you control a class V voice switch, we can set the caller ID ourselves when it is our customer to our customer.
the next step to fool someone would be to submit the caller ID name to the central database 3rd parties control. which we do also.
caller ID is not a very good way to confirm who someone is. better to get a phone number from the ebay site, and call them back.
IrishMike, you are probably right in that some of us trusted with an expectation of honesty by fellow forum members. Honest people don't deserve what was laid out, but if someone violated the eBay ToS as presented, they deserve no pity nor their money back. It's possible to make honest money in coins. I am concerned, however, in how eBay is identifying accounts for this treatment and whether they are violating contracts in suddenly cancelling auctions and bids midstream the way they are. I do applaud them for trying to clean out the crap nonetheless.
<< <i> Anyway, just a line to let you know I feel your pain.
Leevee >>
Thanks for the kind words. I, too, have tried stand alone websites, yahoo auctions and just nothing has the traffic of ebay. I am extremely critical of some of their business practices, and it's pretty disgusting how many people, even on here, don't realize what is going on. For example, it was OK for consignors to bid on their own auctions, as it is in most real world auctions. That's ONE way of the seller protecting himself from his coins selling too cheaply. Then ebay realized that charging to set a reserve brings in a few more dimes on each auction, but works ONLY if sellers are prohibited from placeing bids on their items. The it was extended to include family members, then friends, then employees. Each change brings in a few cents on more on each auction, keeps ebay stock going ever higher. Then Paypal, "always free" isn't. Then forcing sellers to accept credit cards if they accept Paypal at all...and charging credit card discount rates even if the money doesn't come from a credit card. But this episode really has me angry. About 20 hours of my time of taking good quality pictures, optimizing the gallery thumbnails to 80 x 80 so they look nice, uploading to my own web server so the pictures are higher quality than ebays photo hosting...writing thoughtful descriptions..all vanished because I wouldn't give private financial information to an unknown caller on the phone...
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
yea. the phone thing. i still cannot get over the fact ebay expects you to hand out personal finance info to "Joe" from ebay calling from god knows where.
Start recording the conversation. Ask for his full name and possibly extension. Tell him you will call using the number provided on Ebay's website and get a hold of him that way. Also that he is being recorded. Even then its against their policy to ask for credit card information. I wouldn't give it to them.
I once got an email from Ebay informing me about what shill bidding was and that it was against their rules.
No actual accusations against me but apparently they were suspicious about something. Only thing I can figure is that there are two people who bid on a regular basis in my auctions on depression scrip (both are serious long time collectors in that area).
I never heard anything more from Ebay about it and the two people continued to be regular bidders.
<< <i>yea. the phone thing. i still cannot get over the fact ebay expects you to hand out personal finance info to "Joe" from ebay calling from god knows where. >>
The solution is simple. "I'm Joe from eBay and I need to discuss your account. I know you are concerned about phishing to get your private information so please go to the eBay web site and you will find a toll free phone number under Security Verification. Call that number and ask for Joe so we can continue the verification process. Thanks for your cooperation." Since you are calling eBay, your concern for security should be satisfied. Anyone see any problems with this approach?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
if we think what drives ebay as a company, it is money.
it costs money to change the my.ebay.com setup. real money to engineer it, beta test it, etc...
ask me, they just want to save money in every place of the business. if it requires a human, make it as simple for EBAY as possible.
hence a cold call by "Joe" from india with ebay showing up in the caller ID and got the job because his english was near perfect wanting detailed info about you.
i wonder how true that may be?? sorta likely now days.
so yes, i sorta agree. you send that info over a dedicated 64k channel. point to point. not encrypted. taken for granted now days.
even though listening in is trivial with proper access. better to encrypt point to point via SSL on a OS that is not abused like a common workstation to view porn.
Jewelry, Movies, Collectables, Computers & More! With thousands of items for our buyers and with 5% of all profits being donated to a worthy environmental cause, everyone is a hero.
----------- You may no longer want to recieve our offers. The following URL will remove you from all future mailings. http://tekdk1.com/2/54/78967 1214 West Bost Post Rd. Mamaroneck New Yprk
As you grow older, you'll find the only things you regret are the things you didn't do. ~Zachary Scott <> Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is? ~Frank Scully
that strikes me as a scam email. click here on oddball domain. remove your email address is the proper site though. the real site does seem nifty for a lack of a better word.
yea tis spam. just redirects me to the real website to sign up. that spammer prob gets 50 cents or something silly.
As you grow older, you'll find the only things you regret are the things you didn't do. ~Zachary Scott <> Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is? ~Frank Scully
<< <i>ebay's official page on about.com DEFINES shill bidder as friends and acquaintances >>
First the page on "about.com" is NOT an "official" page. It's from someone who USED TO work at eBay's Safe Harbor department who wrote the eBay section on about.com. HIS definition of what eBay calls "shill bidding" is NOT what eBay calls it
From about.com's (not) "official page (http://ebay.about.com/od/frequentlyaskedquestion1/f/faq_shill.htm): "the practice of bidding on auctions placed by friends, family, or acquaintances is called shill bidding, and it's not only against eBay rules, it's also against the law"
From eBay's ACTUAL Help Page on shill bidding (http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html) "Friends and people you know can bid on your auction if they truly intend to purchase your item. Bidding on your item for any other reason is forbidden." (although they don't allow bids from "family members, roommates and employees of sellers"
I find it interesting that several ligitimate sellers have been NARU'd for suspect reasons, but there are still dozens of counterfiet trade and morgan dollars listed by sellers from China. I complain about them on a regular basis and nothing seems to happen in about 90% of the cases. I also remember the case of the "looks all good to me" Savanna scammer. It took months to get them off ebay - then they showed up again in just a few weeks.
It's hard for me to believe that ebay can continue acting in this manner for long without someone giving them a legal spanking. Asking for confidencial information over the phone is something they say they will never do - then that's is exactly what they do. If they continue this practice I believe someone with enough money, and will power will object strongly enough to haul them into court.
Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
Don't even go there. I not only told of everything, but reprinted the exact emails ebay sent us. They claim our issue was about a sudden increase in fees (which was not true-we always had $3-$5,000.00 fees). We are a totally legit company and shilling was NOT something we did or encouraged (each week we'd have coins where we'd loose up to 40%-because we doing so for exposure-this is a verfiable fact).
So maybe you did tell all the salient facts. You ummm, don't write/type terribly well (in many posts) so it is hard to know whether or not you just wrote a short blurb with the facts that YOU considered important, without regard to what *I* might consider important. You have to admit that is a distinct possiblity. If the shoe doesn't fit...
I'm not sure what this fella got nailed for,
See what I mean? It does not add up, does it?
but take my word, it does NOT have to be for anything the way Ebay is acting.
Well Laura, it is hard to accept that:
1. Ebay is greedy and will do ANYTHING to increase their bottom line,
AND
2. ebay kicks off good volume sellers that make huge profits for ebay for no reason at all.
Do you see how those statements do not add up?
So no, I do not agree that you and/or Frank complied with ebay's TOS. You may have told us all the facts,(or not) but you did not give ebay what it had every right to demand. (Of course, I do not know who regularly bids on your items and whether ebay thinks they are a shill or what.) But I do not think it was for shill bidding. But that is immaterial since you decided not to give up the info... By the way, why NOT give them the info?????
If there is a really good reason for ebay to not be able to prove the items are not hot, that you are who you say you are, etc., a lot of us would like to know because we may be faced with the same choice in the coming days. I have not seen any reasoning on your part...
Frank is what he is... Frank seems happy to keep this a shill discussion, but that is how Frank is. He ALWAYS seems to want to argue about how ebay doesn't have the right to set (or enforce) their own TOS. He wants to define what "spam" is too.
You can walk away, Frank, on the other hand, does not have the business outside of ebay that you do and will prolly suffer for his unwillingness to cooperate with ebay.
I haven't read all the thread yet so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but if you have any money in your Paypal account get it out of there NOW! Their next step will be to lock you out of your paypal account. (Your story exactly matches Laura's and that was what they did to her.) If it is linkd to a bank account make sure that is emptied too just to be safe.
<< <i>It's been a while since I read the eBay user agreement, but doesn't it have one of those clauses that say you give up your right to sue them, and must use an arbitrator? >>
But now that he is no longer a user, they kicked him off, would such a clause still be binding? How can you be bound by a user agreement if you aren't a user?
<< <i>I got the E-Bay call for IDs last year. They called and left a message with a phone and fax number. I called back and asked them to send the request via E-Mail (that would show up in my E-Bay My Messages section. Within 5 minutes I received the request there. >>
The above bears repeating. If anybody else gets this phone call, do as Marty did and request verification that proves it's legitimate.
<< <i>My two cents: Assume eBay's actions were purposeful and with full awareness of potential consequences. Assume these actions were as abrupt as portreyed here.
Then, a likely motivation is fear. What could ebay be afraid of? How about a pending class action lawsuit brought by victems of big-time fraudulent dealers on eBay, dealers eBay has not, up to now, done much of anything about so now they are trying to rapidly lay down a record of strict enforcement? >>
I was discussing this issue via PM with another forum member and had the same thought. It seems likely that there is some external pressure behind this.
<< <i>And since ebay doesn't display the buyer's email address, but rather forces me to use their internal system to send email...guess what...I can;t do that either. WHAT A NIGHTMARE! >>
But it does give you their eBay ID, note them and get someone here to contact them and explain what is going on.
<< <i><< And since ebay doesn't display the buyer's email address, but rather forces me to use their internal system to send email...guess what...I can;t do that either. WHAT A NIGHTMARE! >>
But it does give you their eBay ID, note them and get someone here to contact them and explain what is going on. >>
He was blowing smoke on that one. The buyer's eMail address is in the invoice eMail sent out at the end of the auction. The seller gets a copy of that invoice. In fact, all of the information necessary to match buyer to item is available from the eBay invoice and the PayPal eMail. Transactions can be completed just fine without access to the My eBay section.
<< <i> Anyway, just a line to let you know I feel your pain.
Leevee >>
Thanks for the kind words. I, too, have tried stand alone websites, yahoo auctions and just nothing has the traffic of ebay. I am extremely critical of some of their business practices, and it's pretty disgusting how many people, even on here, don't realize what is going on. For example, it was OK for consignors to bid on their own auctions, as it is in most real world auctions. That's ONE way of the seller protecting himself from his coins selling too cheaply. Then ebay realized that charging to set a reserve brings in a few more dimes on each auction, but works ONLY if sellers are prohibited from placeing bids on their items. The it was extended to include family members, then friends, then employees. Each change brings in a few cents on more on each auction, keeps ebay stock going ever higher. Then Paypal, "always free" isn't. Then forcing sellers to accept credit cards if they accept Paypal at all...and charging credit card discount rates even if the money doesn't come from a credit card. But this episode really has me angry. About 20 hours of my time of taking good quality pictures, optimizing the gallery thumbnails to 80 x 80 so they look nice, uploading to my own web server so the pictures are higher quality than ebays photo hosting...writing thoughtful descriptions..all vanished because I wouldn't give private financial information to an unknown caller on the phone... >>
Couple of things.....
1) It sounds like you want electronic commerce to play by the exact same rules as some of the local rules for auctions? Ain't gonna happen nor should it. Internet/electronic commerce is different and rules need to change and adjust. Stop trying to push the envelope and find every little rule difference.
2) If you want to go to someone else's house, then play by their rules. Simple. You don't like it, go elsewhere. Oh, wait, you did go elsewhere and yet you still admit/know that ebay is more profitable for you. So, if you want to use ebay, go by their rules. Do you use a credit card in life? If so, how many times have their changed their TOS on you? Mine change almost yearly it seems. I have a choice. Accept the new changes or stop using them. My choice for that. Your choice for ebay.
Oh year, one more thing.....a seller bidding so a coin doesn't sell "too cheaply"......I don't care if it is done in real world auctions....I don't like it (and one of the reasons I don't do auctions). Put a reserve (I don't care if ebay made it free or charges for it) or start at that price. If you aren't willing to let market forces dictate the price, then set it to start at what everyone would be happy with or don't auction it. Reading your posts makes it sound like you want to push the envelope on the shilling rules, as defined by ebay.
<< <i>Yeah, sure. It is all about persecuting you... Just because you are smarter than some little creep. Yeah that's it. You showed him up in an email and now it is vendetta time. Sure it is. The guy doesn't have a life so he is out to get you. Yeah. All because you, Super Auctioneer from Texas, smarter than any lawyer, better schooled from Autioneer School, are going to show him with a secondary source, not actual cases, but a school book, because you are above reading cases... Yeah, that's it. Super Frank, legal expert, when he tells you what the law is, well he is right because he is an auctioneer...Which as EVERYONE should know, is BETTER than being a lawyer or a judge... Right Frank? Corporate counsel for ebay better watch out. Sue em Frank! lol
Frank, if you don't want to look like a fool, quit pounding your chest and proclaiming what an expert you are in law, especially the UCC. Stick to something you know. >>
I have conducted over 500 numismatic live auctions over a ten year period, all under the rules of the Texas Dept. of Licensing and Regulation, which incorporates the Uniform Commercial Code in their regulations. Your cowardly anonymous attacks on me are seen for what they are, and are certainly not appropriate this forum.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Stiffy--you are a moron, the guy knows the law. ------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- With all that is happening at Ebay--Where is our great ANA??
<< <i>I got the E-Bay call for IDs last year. They called and left a message with a phone and fax number. I called back and asked them to send the request via E-Mail (that would show up in my E-Bay My Messages section. Within 5 minutes I received the request there. Faxed a copy of my drivers license and life was good. >>
This sounds reasonable to me. Did they ask for anything else?
If Ebay wants to regulate dealer participation and not be used as an advertising medium, all they have to do is require sellers to maintain a certain percentage of sales to listings.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Whether eBay can retain Franlk's fees despite cancelling his auctions presents a breach of contract issue.
(Legal analysis snipped because it isn't terribly relevent in light of ebay's shill bidding TOS which Frank agreed to by trading on ebay after they sent notice of this to him last year. Note the possible sanction: "Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings" )
So, I disagree. I believe it presents a question of the enforcabilty of ebay's forfeiture rule, if anything where Frank would be plaintiff.
It might be better for Frank to avoid court, seeing as there are criminal penalties for shilling in an electronic auction. But I digress...
Ebay's shill policy:
"Shill Bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item’s price or apparent desirability, or bidding by individuals with a level of access to the seller’s item information not available to the general Community. Shill Bidding is prohibited on eBay.
Because family members, roommates and employees of sellers have a level of access to item information which is not available to the general Community, they are not permitted to bid on items offered by the seller – even if their sole intent is to purchase the item. Family members, roommates or employees may purchase items from a seller without violating this policy simply by using purchase options – such as Buy It Now – which do not involve bidding.
eBay strongly encourages sellers with employees to ensure that their employees are aware of this policy and the possible consequences of violation.
Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:
Listing cancellation
Limits on account privileges
Account suspension
Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
Loss of PowerSeller status
Referral to Law Enforcement "
Not only is it against ebay's TOS but it is a felony wire fraud issue or if he sent an item by US mail that was allegedly shilled that would be a mail fraud issue.
I give the chances of any such lawsuit on Frank's behalf a zero chance of success. >>
So, therein by decree you have just insinuated that the knowledgeable collector and/or buyer who has an above average knowledge of a specific die marriage, Attributed or non-atributed VAM, or specific type of coin is a shill bidder. You can argue that fact with bids either placed by someone who saw the aforementioned statement OR who knows of a individual that collects those specifics and has bid or the pre-thought intent to bid is a shill bidder, whether or not they actually win the item/s or not.
This is a very dumb ass thread. - Laura Sperber - Tuesday January 09, 2007 11:16 AM
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
Comments
If the same conduct is also a crime, how can the fact that it also violates ebay policy possibly insulate one from criminal penalties?
<< <i>What a laugh...One of the FIVE YEAR OLD quotes that "stiffy" digs up has Eric Tillery telling me
"part of your problem here is that you blindly defended (name removed) simply because he was a homosexual." >>
I find what you had to say more important to this conversation than what others said.
Why is Brickboytx NARU too?
<< <i>So sue them Frank. You will win, right?
Why is Brickboytx NARU too? >>
Must be because he is a homosexual. That seems be what you are obsessed with.
I remember when his dad passed away, all you guys on rcc did was make fun of him.
is illegal, not only on ebay, but on all auctions online and offline. I cited a couple of references from auction school textbooks
showing that this just isn't so, and could he provide legal citations.
So shill bidding is ok, right? It isn't fraud even if the people bidding have no notice that a seller is bidding, right Frank? Or shill bidding is not ok, but the definition of shill bidding is what you say it is, not what ebay says? Or what are you saying?
Same old, same old, Frank? Maybe you'll get some sympathy, maybe not, but it changes nothing. Still naru.
Welcome to yahoo.
<< <i>
<< <i>So sue them Frank. You will win, right?
Why is Brickboytx NARU too? >>
Must be because he is a homosexual. That seems be what you are obsessed with.
I remember when his dad passed away, all you guys on rcc did was make fun of him. >>
Wasn't me. I don't make fun of people and I wasn't on rcc. The archives are there though.
But he is your pal and is NARu at the same time.... hmmm
That would be allowing a NARU member to participate. If caught ebay would NARU you both for life, in all probability. They don't take kindly to NARU members circumventing the suspension. Otherwise, why bother suspending people if they can get around it?
<< <i>So shill bidding is ok, right? >>
No it's not. An auctioneer can lose his license for knowingly accepting shill bids. But ebay tries to
define shill bidding as friends, family, or employees placing LEGITIMATE BIDS on items that they intend to
pay for.
<< <i>It isn't fraud even if the people bidding have no notice that a seller is bidding, right Frank? >>
In some states there is the assumption that the sellers can bid unless its announced otherwise.
Other states require an announcment that the seller "may" bid. If sellers mistakenly bid when they
should not have been allowed to do so, the winning bidder may cancel the sale, or alternately accept the
lot at one increment above the last proper bid.
<< <i> Or shill bidding is not ok, but the definition of shill bidding is what you say it is, not what ebay says? Or what are you saying? >>
It's an insincere bid made to drive up the price, with the bidder having no intention of actually completing the
transaction. But since ebay claims not to be an auctioneer, "just a venue" how can ANY of the terms regulating auctions
apply to something that's not an auction?
<< <i>Same old, same old, Frank? Maybe you'll get some sympathy, maybe not, but it changes nothing. Still naru.
Welcome to yahoo. >>
is illegal, not only on ebay, but on all auctions online and offline. I cited a couple of references from auction school textbooks
showing that this just isn't so, and could he provide legal citations. I guess this is my payback....
Yeah, sure. It is all about persecuting you... Just because you are smarter than some little creep. Yeah that's it. You showed him up in an email and now it is vendetta time. Sure it is. The guy doesn't have a life so he is out to get you. Yeah. All because you, Super Auctioneer from Texas, smarter than any lawyer, better schooled from Autioneer School, are going to show him with a secondary source, not actual cases, but a school book, because you are above reading cases... Yeah, that's it. Super Frank, legal expert, when he tells you what the law is, well he is right because he is an auctioneer...Which as EVERYONE should know, is BETTER than being a lawyer or a judge... Right Frank? Corporate counsel for ebay better watch out. Sue em Frank! lol
Frank, if you don't want to look like a fool, quit pounding your chest and proclaiming what an expert you are in law, especially the UCC. Stick to something you know.
Why did you even write the email? You know EXACTLY what ebay's rules are. Roommates, not "people you know" or "friends" Frank.
And, if it is a vendetta, you brought it upon yourself. There was nothing to be gained by engaging the "little creep" in a battle of words.
numbers which are identified as being out-of-service when I speed dial them back from my caller ID only minutes afterwards. From what I've been told it may be technically feasible to spoof one of eBay's telephone numbers.
That's in interesting result of EBAY's actions that I hadn't considered. If I was a seller and the high bidders bid had been cancelled because of problems with their sales auctions...not because of their payment history...I would indeed be steamed. I don't think it's appropriate for an auction venue, which is all they purport to be, to unilaterally cancel bids by a bidder just because they are having a business dispute with the way he runs his own auctions.
I agree with the larger point that EBAY has went off the deep end NARUing Legend and other established dealers, but this latest incident points up that wholly innocent and uninvolved EBAY sellers are getting swept up and financially hurt by their actions.
This sucks in all the wrong ways!
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
numbers which are identified as being out-of-service when I speed dial them back from my caller ID only minutes afterwards. From what I've been told it may be technically feasible to spoof one of eBay's telephone numbers.
I've been told this isn't a spoof so who to believe? eBay even NARUed Frank. Pretty elaborate spoof, huh?
Truth is, I don't think Frank nor Legend told us everything...
But who cares?
Frank isn't trying to get advice, just sympathy.
He is an expert at law. He is so good he didn't have to go to law school. If you don't believe me, just ask him. He took a six hour course on autioneering and now knows more than any mortal lawyer, judge or Supreme Court Justice.
<< <i>
<< <i>Granted, but can anyone that has ever been called by eBay say that eBay shows up on caller ID? >>
Yes, they do. So does PayPal.
Russ, NCNE >>
Caller ID can be spoofed. Numbers & names. Easily.
It seems that their is information missing from your claim here and that they simply phoned one time, followed up with an email to cancel and that was that.
If you received the phone call, and there was a follow up message in your Ebay "my messages" section (to verify the validity of the phone call), why didn't you forward them the information they requested?
Seems you would have saved yourself a lot of aggravation and embarrassment that way.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
Then, a likely motivation is fear. What could ebay be afraid of? How about a pending class action lawsuit brought by victems of big-time fraudulent dealers on eBay, dealers eBay has not, up to now, done much of anything about so now they are trying to rapidly lay down a record of strict enforcement?
Just a stab in the dark........ Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
Anyway, just a line to let you know I feel your pain.
Leevee
V voice switch, we can set the caller ID ourselves when it is
our customer to our customer.
the next step to fool someone would be to submit the caller ID
name to the central database 3rd parties control. which we do also.
caller ID is not a very good way to confirm who someone is.
better to get a phone number from the ebay site, and call them
back.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>
Anyway, just a line to let you know I feel your pain.
Leevee >>
Thanks for the kind words. I, too, have tried stand alone websites, yahoo auctions and just nothing has the traffic of ebay.
I am extremely critical of some of their business practices, and it's pretty disgusting how many people, even on here, don't
realize what is going on. For example, it was OK for consignors to bid on their own auctions, as it is in most real world auctions.
That's ONE way of the seller protecting himself from his coins selling too cheaply. Then ebay realized that charging to set a reserve brings
in a few more dimes on each auction, but works ONLY if sellers are prohibited from placeing bids on their items. The it was extended to include family members, then friends, then employees. Each change brings in a few cents on more on each auction, keeps ebay
stock going ever higher. Then Paypal, "always free" isn't. Then forcing sellers to accept credit cards if they accept Paypal at all...and
charging credit card discount rates even if the money doesn't come from a credit card. But this episode really has me angry. About 20 hours of my time of taking good quality pictures, optimizing the gallery thumbnails to 80 x 80 so they look nice, uploading to my own web server so the pictures are higher quality than ebays photo hosting...writing thoughtful descriptions..all vanished because I wouldn't give private financial information to an unknown caller on the phone...
expects you to hand out personal finance info to "Joe"
from ebay calling from god knows where.
I guess if you sell on ebay, you can't have friends.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
No actual accusations against me but apparently they were suspicious about something. Only thing I can figure is that there
are two people who bid on a regular basis in my auctions on depression scrip (both are serious long time collectors in that area).
I never heard anything more from Ebay about it and the two people continued to be regular bidders.
<< <i>yea. the phone thing. i still cannot get over the fact ebay
expects you to hand out personal finance info to "Joe"
from ebay calling from god knows where. >>
The solution is simple. "I'm Joe from eBay and I need to discuss your account. I know you are concerned about phishing to get your private information so please go to the eBay web site and you will find a toll free phone number under Security Verification. Call that number and ask for Joe so we can continue the verification process. Thanks for your cooperation." Since you are calling eBay, your concern for security should be satisfied. Anyone see any problems with this approach?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
if we think what drives ebay as a company, it is money.
it costs money to change the my.ebay.com setup. real money
to engineer it, beta test it, etc...
ask me, they just want to save money in every place of the business.
if it requires a human, make it as simple for EBAY as possible.
hence a cold call by "Joe" from india with ebay showing up
in the caller ID and got the job because his english
was near perfect wanting detailed info about you.
i wonder how true that may be?? sorta likely now days.
so yes, i sorta agree. you send that info over a dedicated
64k channel. point to point. not encrypted. taken for granted
now days.
even though listening in is trivial with proper access. better
to encrypt point to point via SSL on a OS that is not abused
like a common workstation to view porn.
I received this email earlier this month, has anyone given it a try, or even heard of it?
05/05/06
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If you have any questions or concerns, you may contact us at the following address:
MightyBids
3539 St.Charles #174
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If you wish to remove yourself from further Mighty Bids mailings please copy and paste the
following link into your browser:
http://www.mightybids.com/optOut.cfm?email=somebody@somewhere.com
-----------
You may no longer want to recieve our offers. The following URL will remove you from all future
mailings. http://tekdk1.com/2/54/78967
1214 West Bost Post Rd. Mamaroneck New Yprk
Home page
Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is? ~Frank Scully
that strikes me as a scam email. click here on oddball domain.
remove your email address is the proper site though.
the real site does seem nifty for a lack of a better word.
yea tis spam. just redirects me to the real website to sign up.
that spammer prob gets 50 cents or something silly.
That's what I was afraid of! I never registered because of my uncertainty. Hence, If it sounds too good to be true... it probably is!
My eBay auctions
Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is? ~Frank Scully
<< <i>ebay's official page on about.com DEFINES shill bidder as friends and acquaintances >>
First the page on "about.com" is NOT an "official" page. It's from someone who USED TO work at eBay's Safe Harbor department who wrote the eBay section on about.com. HIS definition of what eBay calls "shill bidding" is NOT what eBay calls it
From about.com's (not) "official page (http://ebay.about.com/od/frequentlyaskedquestion1/f/faq_shill.htm):
"the practice of bidding on auctions placed by friends, family, or acquaintances is called shill bidding, and it's not only against eBay rules, it's also against the law"
From eBay's ACTUAL Help Page on shill bidding (http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html)
"Friends and people you know can bid on your auction if they truly intend to purchase your item. Bidding on your item for any other reason is forbidden." (although they don't allow bids from "family members, roommates and employees of sellers"
It's hard for me to believe that ebay can continue acting in this manner for long without someone giving them a legal spanking. Asking for confidencial information over the phone is something they say they will never do - then that's is exactly what they do. If they continue this practice I believe someone with enough money, and will power will object strongly enough to haul them into court.
So maybe you did tell all the salient facts. You ummm, don't write/type terribly well (in many posts) so it is hard to know whether or not you just wrote a short blurb with the facts that YOU considered important, without regard to what *I* might consider important. You have to admit that is a distinct possiblity. If the shoe doesn't fit...
I'm not sure what this fella got nailed for,
See what I mean? It does not add up, does it?
but take my word, it does NOT have to be for anything the way Ebay is acting.
Well Laura, it is hard to accept that:
1. Ebay is greedy and will do ANYTHING to increase their bottom line,
AND
2. ebay kicks off good volume sellers that make huge profits for ebay for no reason at all.
Do you see how those statements do not add up?
So no, I do not agree that you and/or Frank complied with ebay's TOS. You may have told us all the facts,(or not) but you did not give ebay what it had every right to demand. (Of course, I do not know who regularly bids on your items and whether ebay thinks they are a shill or what.) But I do not think it was for shill bidding. But that is immaterial since you decided not to give up the info...
By the way, why NOT give them the info?????
If there is a really good reason for ebay to not be able to prove the items are not hot, that you are who you say you are, etc., a lot of us would like to know because we may be faced with the same choice in the coming days. I have not seen any reasoning on your part...
Frank is what he is...
Frank seems happy to keep this a shill discussion, but that is how Frank is. He ALWAYS seems to want to argue about how ebay doesn't have the right to set (or enforce) their own TOS. He wants to define what "spam" is too.
You can walk away, Frank, on the other hand, does not have the business outside of ebay that you do and will prolly suffer for his unwillingness to cooperate with ebay.
edited to remove smoe bolded text
And do what? Make them give back the information?
You can sue anyone for anything... That does not mean you can win.
<< <i>It's been a while since I read the eBay user agreement, but doesn't it have one of those clauses that say you give up your right to sue them, and must use an arbitrator? >>
But now that he is no longer a user, they kicked him off, would such a clause still be binding? How can you be bound by a user agreement if you aren't a user?
<< <i>I got the E-Bay call for IDs last year. They called and left a message with a phone and fax number. I called back and asked them to send the request via E-Mail (that would show up in my E-Bay My Messages section. Within 5 minutes I received the request there. >>
The above bears repeating. If anybody else gets this phone call, do as Marty did and request verification that proves it's legitimate.
<< <i>My two cents: Assume eBay's actions were purposeful and with full awareness of potential consequences. Assume these actions were as abrupt as portreyed here.
Then, a likely motivation is fear. What could ebay be afraid of? How about a pending class action lawsuit brought by victems of big-time fraudulent dealers on eBay, dealers eBay has not, up to now, done much of anything about so now they are trying to rapidly lay down a record of strict enforcement? >>
I was discussing this issue via PM with another forum member and had the same thought. It seems likely that there is some external pressure behind this.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>And since ebay doesn't display the buyer's email address, but rather forces me to use their internal system to send email...guess what...I can;t do that either. WHAT A NIGHTMARE! >>
But it does give you their eBay ID, note them and get someone here to contact them and explain what is going on.
<< <i><< And since ebay doesn't display the buyer's email address, but rather forces me to use their internal system to send email...guess what...I can;t do that either. WHAT A NIGHTMARE! >>
But it does give you their eBay ID, note them and get someone here to contact them and explain what is going on. >>
He was blowing smoke on that one. The buyer's eMail address is in the invoice eMail sent out at the end of the auction. The seller gets a copy of that invoice. In fact, all of the information necessary to match buyer to item is available from the eBay invoice and the PayPal eMail. Transactions can be completed just fine without access to the My eBay section.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I remember when his dad passed away, all you guys on rcc did was make fun of him. >>
Trying to pollute yet another coin forum, Frank?
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Anyway, just a line to let you know I feel your pain.
Leevee >>
Thanks for the kind words. I, too, have tried stand alone websites, yahoo auctions and just nothing has the traffic of ebay.
I am extremely critical of some of their business practices, and it's pretty disgusting how many people, even on here, don't
realize what is going on. For example, it was OK for consignors to bid on their own auctions, as it is in most real world auctions.
That's ONE way of the seller protecting himself from his coins selling too cheaply. Then ebay realized that charging to set a reserve brings
in a few more dimes on each auction, but works ONLY if sellers are prohibited from placeing bids on their items. The it was extended to include family members, then friends, then employees. Each change brings in a few cents on more on each auction, keeps ebay
stock going ever higher. Then Paypal, "always free" isn't. Then forcing sellers to accept credit cards if they accept Paypal at all...and
charging credit card discount rates even if the money doesn't come from a credit card. But this episode really has me angry. About 20 hours of my time of taking good quality pictures, optimizing the gallery thumbnails to 80 x 80 so they look nice, uploading to my own web server so the pictures are higher quality than ebays photo hosting...writing thoughtful descriptions..all vanished because I wouldn't give private financial information to an unknown caller on the phone... >>
Couple of things.....
1) It sounds like you want electronic commerce to play by the exact same rules as some of the local rules for auctions? Ain't gonna happen nor should it. Internet/electronic commerce is different and rules need to change and adjust. Stop trying to push the envelope and find every little rule difference.
2) If you want to go to someone else's house, then play by their rules. Simple. You don't like it, go elsewhere. Oh, wait, you did go elsewhere and yet you still admit/know that ebay is more profitable for you. So, if you want to use ebay, go by their rules. Do you use a credit card in life? If so, how many times have their changed their TOS on you? Mine change almost yearly it seems. I have a choice. Accept the new changes or stop using them. My choice for that. Your choice for ebay.
Oh year, one more thing.....a seller bidding so a coin doesn't sell "too cheaply"......I don't care if it is done in real world auctions....I don't like it (and one of the reasons I don't do auctions). Put a reserve (I don't care if ebay made it free or charges for it) or start at that price. If you aren't willing to let market forces dictate the price, then set it to start at what everyone would be happy with or don't auction it. Reading your posts makes it sound like you want to push the envelope on the shilling rules, as defined by ebay.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Yeah, sure. It is all about persecuting you... Just because you are smarter than some little creep. Yeah that's it. You showed him up in an email and now it is vendetta time. Sure it is. The guy doesn't have a life so he is out to get you. Yeah. All because you, Super Auctioneer from Texas, smarter than any lawyer, better schooled from Autioneer School, are going to show him with a secondary source, not actual cases, but a school book, because you are above reading cases... Yeah, that's it. Super Frank, legal expert, when he tells you what the law is, well he is right because he is an auctioneer...Which as EVERYONE should know, is BETTER than being a lawyer or a judge... Right Frank? Corporate counsel for ebay better watch out. Sue em Frank! lol
Frank, if you don't want to look like a fool, quit pounding your chest and proclaiming what an expert you are in law, especially the UCC. Stick to something you know. >>
I have conducted over 500 numismatic live auctions over a ten year period, all under the rules of the Texas Dept. of Licensing and Regulation, which incorporates the Uniform Commercial Code in their regulations. Your cowardly anonymous attacks on me are seen for what they are, and are certainly not appropriate this forum.
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
With all that is happening at Ebay--Where is our great ANA??
<< <i>I got the E-Bay call for IDs last year. They called and left a message with a phone and fax number. I called back and asked them to send the request via E-Mail (that would show up in my E-Bay My Messages section. Within 5 minutes I received the request there. Faxed a copy of my drivers license and life was good. >>
This sounds reasonable to me. Did they ask for anything else?
Free Trial
Looks like eBay suspension counseling is a new niche market.........geesh!
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Whether eBay can retain Franlk's fees despite cancelling his auctions presents a breach of contract issue.
(Legal analysis snipped because it isn't terribly relevent in light of ebay's shill bidding TOS which Frank agreed to by trading on ebay after they sent notice of this to him last year. Note the possible sanction: "Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings" )
So, I disagree. I believe it presents a question of the enforcabilty of ebay's forfeiture rule, if anything where Frank would be plaintiff.
It might be better for Frank to avoid court, seeing as there are criminal penalties for shilling in an electronic auction. But I digress...
Ebay's shill policy:
"Shill Bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item’s price or apparent desirability, or bidding by individuals with a level of access to the seller’s item information not available to the general Community. Shill Bidding is prohibited on eBay.
Because family members, roommates and employees of sellers have a level of access to item information which is not available to the general Community, they are not permitted to bid on items offered by the seller – even if their sole intent is to purchase the item. Family members, roommates or employees may purchase items from a seller without violating this policy simply by using purchase options – such as Buy It Now – which do not involve bidding.
eBay strongly encourages sellers with employees to ensure that their employees are aware of this policy and the possible consequences of violation.
Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:
Listing cancellation
Limits on account privileges
Account suspension
Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
Loss of PowerSeller status
Referral to Law Enforcement "
Not only is it against ebay's TOS but it is a felony wire fraud issue or if he sent an item by US mail that was allegedly shilled that would be a mail fraud issue.
I give the chances of any such lawsuit on Frank's behalf a zero chance of success. >>
So, therein by decree you have just insinuated that the knowledgeable collector and/or buyer who has an above average knowledge of a specific die marriage, Attributed or non-atributed VAM, or specific type of coin is a shill bidder. You can argue that fact with bids either placed by someone who saw the aforementioned statement OR who knows of a individual that collects those specifics and has bid or the pre-thought intent to bid is a shill bidder, whether or not they actually win the item/s or not.
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.