very important question about shaddy dealers with high grades

1980scollector · May 8, 2006 1:51AM

I hear you guys speak of Unklbnz and Burge's crew? What are you talking about or referring too? Do they trim cards and get them graded? do they not ship items? just curious because I do not want to buy a high dollar card and it be trimmed(in a holder or not). Thanks in advance and you guys are really helping me get back in the card hobby and respect your opinions. Anybody else to watch out for?

baseballfanatic · May 8, 2006 2:35AM

1) No answer
2) No answer
3) Yes
4) No answer
5) Not enough room to list

Overrated · May 8, 2006 3:10AM

Only buy! psa graded cards if you buy anything else you dont now whats inside?

ToppsCo1lector · May 8, 2006 3:29AM

^^Add BGS(NOT BVG or BCCG) and SGC to that list. I don't mess with any other grading companies.

etown99girl · May 8, 2006 3:31AM

^^Add BGS(NOT BVG or BCCG)

I thought they were all the same company Beckett?????

ToppsCo1lector · May 8, 2006 3:40AM

But there are different standards. BCCG will always give a 9 or 10. It's not a per say grading company, it's more of an encapsulation and authenticator or cards imo. BVG has different(weaker) standards for there vintage grades than they do with modern cards. Also, BVG eliminated all subgrades and only list the overall grade on the case. BGS though, is still one of the if not the toughest third party grader. It shows b/c BGS routinely sells for more than it's counterparts. I personally like BGS, PSA, then SGC. I like SGC's clean look do to the dark insert and they grading scale used.

Boopotts · May 8, 2006 3:54AM

<< <i>I hear you guys speak of Unklbnz and Burge's crew? What are you talking about or referring too? Do they trim cards and get them graded? do they not ship items? just curious because I do not want to buy a high dollar card and it be trimmed(in a holder or not). Thanks in advance and you guys are really helping me get back in the card hobby and respect your opinions. Anybody else to watch out for? >>

The best way to put this is that they have a reputation for trimming. You can usually tell if someone is a trimmer if they make you an offer on a high dollar card you've put up on Ebay and tell you 'that they're not worried about the corners or edges so much (lol), but they don't want the card if it has surface defects'. If you get an email like that there's a high chance that a trimmer is looking to buy your card.

As far as who's a trimmer and who isn't, I assume anyone with a large number of high end BGS 9.5's is a trimmer. I also assume that anyone who puts almost nothing but vintage PSA 8 and 9 cards up for sale may be up to no good as well. One of the biggest misconceptions IMO in the hobby today is that dealers have some kind of mystical access to tons of raw, high grade cards that the rest of us don't. If you see a dealer who puts 100+ PSA 9 1960's commons for sale on Ebay every two weeks, or bucketfuls of $100 Lebron RC's in BGS 9.5 holders, it's foolish to think this dealer is just buying beautiful raw lots and submitting the cards unaltered. The fact is that anyone with a rototrim rotary paper cutter can mimic the factory cut of just about any post-1960 card, so don't count on the grading companies to sort out all the trim jobs for you.

Those of you who have gone through your childhood collections looking for submittable cards, or through friends' old collections, should know exactly what I'm talking about. I've personally sifted through no fewer than 50 collections that friends and associates have had from their childhood, and I've come up with fewer than a dozen decent cards from those efforts. So I'm either the unluckiest guy on the planet, or there's something else at work here. If your experiences mirror mine then I'd be very leery of anyone who seems to come up with scores and scores of gorgeous carde every week or so. The question remains: Where are these cards coming from? What, 'ads in the paper'? Just how many 'finds' of PSA 9 quality vintage cards, or BGS 9.5 quality modern RCs, can anyone come up with in the course of a given month?

shagrotn77 · May 8, 2006 4:06AM

Hallelujah boopotts! I agree with just about everything you wrote. I'd love for someone from a seller like DSL or 4SC to respond and attempt to explain their 'secret', but I'm not gonna hold my breath. My personal feelings on those 2 in particular is that DSL sells a lot of trimmed cards that slip by the graders, while 4SC's are often overgraded, maybe because graders can't give each card the proper attention it deserves due to the high volume of cards they submit in each batch.

Boopotts · May 8, 2006 4:15AM

<< <i>Hallelujah boopotts! I agree with just about everything you wrote. I'd love for someone from a seller like DSL or 4SC to respond and attempt to explain their 'secret', but I'm not gonna hold my breath. My personal feelings on those 2 in particular is that DSL sells a lot of trimmed cards that slip by the graders, while 4SC's are often overgraded, maybe because graders can't give each card the proper attention it deserves due to the high volume of cards they submit in each batch. >>

Well, that's two of us

. This isn't about 'making unfound accusations', or anything of the sort. It's just a question of taking your own experiences with the raw vintage you've found in your travels and comparing the disparity between your experiences and the apparent experiences of large dealers. Everyone has their own opinion on this, and I completely respect that. But I simply cannot believe that anyone is digging up 500 nmt-mt or better vintage cards every week. When you consider that third party graders have to have some tolerance for card size given the production methods on vintage issues, and the fact that everyone is about a $300 investment away from getting a paper cutter that will mimic a vintage cut, well... again, come to your own conclusions.

brianwintersfan · May 8, 2006 4:25AM

I just posted this on another thread but it fits on this one as well. I just talked to someone over the weekend who I know and trust and he has dealings with some big submitter's. The bottom line is that there are a lot of trimmed cards out there in company's holders we all know.
Is it as bad as Pro or Gem?? Most likely not but it is happening so just be careful what you buy.

fdnyladder7 · May 8, 2006 5:15AM

In defense of BVG, I've broken several T206's and "crossover'd" to PSA. *BVG 2's became PSA 2's, sometimes 3's and twice 4's! Note: a very small fraction remained 2's and no BVGs were rejected nor graded lower.

*This was a bit more than a year ago.

Can't speak for BGS though the BCCG division is laughable.

Incidentally, I steer away from the big-box ebay card sellers now -too many sad stories.

theczar · May 8, 2006 6:42AM

boots and shagrotn,

both of you are some of the most common sense contributors to these boards that being said......you really are digging up a big bucket of worms about the these sellers. if stiffing a buyer on e-bay is barry bonds, selling trimmed cards is pete rose. bonds is bad, rose is perpetual disgrace. in my opinion it is as bad as countefieting.

if it was proven that they are knowingly selling trimmed raw merchandise or knowingly submitting trimmed cards to be graded it would be the scarlett letter for their repuatations and businesses. ditto for psa for grading it. how many slams are written about gem cards on these boards because of their grading practices.

where do they get these cards? i wish i knew especially dsl who sells much older items. i do know that they sell psa 7's and 8's so unless they have centering issues why wouldn't they trim every card into a 9 or 10?

not blasting either of you two, but i need more proof to believe it.

fjm

Boopotts · May 8, 2006 6:51AM

<< <i>boots and shagrotn,

both of you are some of the most common sense contributors to these boards that being said......you really are digging up a big bucket of worms about the these sellers. if stiffing a buyer on e-bay is barry bonds, selling trimmed cards is pete rose. bonds is bad, rose is perpetual disgrace. in my opinion it is as bad as countefieting.

if it was proven that they are knowingly selling trimmed raw merchandise or knowingly submitting trimmed cards to be graded it would be the scarlett letter for their repuatations and businesses. ditto for psa for grading it. how many slams are written about gem cards on these boards because of their grading practices.

where do they get these cards? i wish i knew especially dsl who sells much older items. i do know that they sell psa 7's and 8's so unless they have centering issues why wouldn't they trim every card into a 9 or 10?

not blasting either of you two, but i need more proof to believe it.

fjm >>

I'm not making an accusation. Like I said, it could be that they just keep digging up find after find after find. Who knows? I don't.

It's like the Koby rape case, or the situation at Duke right now. Did they 'do it'? Again, I don't know. But you have to allow for the possibility that they did. And the same goes for volume sellers. You don't have to say 'yes, they're trimming cards', but the fact that it's not hard at all to imitate a factory cut coupled with the fact that many active collectors have gone YEARS without finding a horde of mint 40 year old commons should make you wonder.

Also, some cards just can't be trimmed. They're 1/16" short, or narrow L/R, or they have other problems (surface issues, etc.) which makes trimming them useless. But there are very, very few people in this world who would not consider trimming a gorgeous PSA 8 Joe Montana RC that was 1/32" long with just a slight touch on one corner, or some other card that exhibited similar features that could fetch 1000% at auction after the haircut.

baseballfanatic · May 8, 2006 8:13AM

No accusations. Just facts. Ask around. Those in the know will be glad to tell...................

zef204 · May 8, 2006 8:13AM

I too think you guys are digging too deep. If they have money they can buy huge lots cards. Could you do this if you had money? Very likely, albeit you should start finding connections that know of you as the person to contact when someone wants to sell their whole collection.

baseballfanatic · May 8, 2006 8:34AM

There was a big flap a few years ago (on the Beckett boards) because what brought all of it to light was the grading of a Mark Pryor numbered rookie. The two cards were compared side by side and you could clearly see that quite a large portion of the card had been trimmed. It wouldnt have been a big deal, but when you have a 9 compared to the then "rare" 9.5 or even 10 bump I believe, it becomes quite a big deal when you can see that it was the same card (both had the same serial number). People buying cards for (these arent the exact numbers) 300.00 and then turning around and trimming them up to sell them for 3,000.00 plus, is nothing but a black eye for the hobby. I love the potential for a profit in the hobby, but these people are only in it for a quick buck, not the love of cards and who gets stuck with them.....

theczar · May 8, 2006 11:00AM

No accusations. Just facts. Ask around. Those in the know will be glad to tell...................

fanatic,
i am not to proud to say give me the facts. i am asking around so please inform me. without facts or proof they are accusations. i would like to know of instances where major big time sellers with great feedback are trimming cards.

otherwise it is just hearsay.....

very important question about shaddy dealers with high grades

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