Fort Washington - big dud
A761506
Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭
I flew into Philly and went to the show on Saturday... what a disappointment, and I have a feeling a lot of the dealers share that sentiment. I couldn't believe how few people attended, and I didn't see anyone buying anything except a few people picking commons to complete sets. I talked to a few dealers, a couple said they had sold some mid-grade 60's Mantle's, but not one mention of a any large sales. Not that many of the dealers were helping the cause, lots of outragous price tags on a significant majority of their cards.
Fortunately, I went to the Friday ballgame at the new park (which is beautiful, but a tiny homerun launching pad with a jet stream to right center).
If anyone has an opportunity to go to a game against the Giants when Bonds is playing, it is quite a surreal experience. As a matter of fact, I've never seen anything even close to comparable, not even in the WWE are the "bad guy" wrestlers as hated as Bonds. I honestly don't know why the guy continues to play... he's practically a cripple in the field, he is no longer nearly as threatening at the plate, and he takes unbelievable heckling that would drive anyone completely nuts. The fans here have a lot of pent up anger (because the city hasn't had a team win anything in any sport in 26 years) that they are quick to unleash on the opponent or their own players if/when circumstances present themselves, and not one of them held back for Bonds.
Fortunately, I went to the Friday ballgame at the new park (which is beautiful, but a tiny homerun launching pad with a jet stream to right center).
If anyone has an opportunity to go to a game against the Giants when Bonds is playing, it is quite a surreal experience. As a matter of fact, I've never seen anything even close to comparable, not even in the WWE are the "bad guy" wrestlers as hated as Bonds. I honestly don't know why the guy continues to play... he's practically a cripple in the field, he is no longer nearly as threatening at the plate, and he takes unbelievable heckling that would drive anyone completely nuts. The fans here have a lot of pent up anger (because the city hasn't had a team win anything in any sport in 26 years) that they are quick to unleash on the opponent or their own players if/when circumstances present themselves, and not one of them held back for Bonds.
0
Comments
<< <i>Take a shovel and bury the show. It is all over and still no sign of where the show is moving to. So goodbye and say hello E-bay. >>
It doesn't need to be that way, but that's the way all shows are going to go unless someone wises up to the fact that you can't keep running a regular show if every dealer is featuring the exact same merchandise. Card shows these days have just become 50 middle aged dealers all trying to pawn off the VG- EXMT 50's, 60's and 70's stuff that they don't want to slab. It's ridiculous. Want an EX- EXMT '61 Topps Aaron for $110? THEN GO TO A SHOW, because you'll have about 40 to choose from. Need some VG 1966 commons for a $1 each to finish off a set? Again, hit a local show; you'll have thousands to choose from
But outside of that you're SOL. If you're looking for '80's oddball stuff, or a Lebron James RC, or a Sydney Crosby autographed card you will not find it. Or at least that's my experience. Maybe the Ft. Wash. show is different, but the Gibraltar shows here feature of of two types of dealers (and all dealers fit firmly within these parameters). 1) The aforementioned 'vintage' dealer who wants hi book on semi star cards from the Lyndon Johnson era, or 2) The 'modern' dealer who's really nothing more than a glorified pack ripping adict, and is looking for an outlet for all his crappy jersey cards and certified auto's of 2001 Bowman Chrome busts.
If I was going to be a dealer and wanted to focus on vintage cards I'd do two things. First I'd accumulate all the weird oddball/ test issues I could find and put those in the display case. Second, I'd buy hordes of VG-EX star cards from the 50's and 60's off Ebay and sell 'em for about a 50% mark up. You can move all the '64 Killebrews you want, in any condition imaginable, for $5 each. I've seen bargain bins at dealer's tables, which were essentially just filled with off grade star cards priced to sell, get literally emptied out in 8 or 9 hrs. Most people who are looking for older cards are not looking to spend $80 on something. They want cards of players the know, and they want 'em cheap. Not everyone is like us here, fretting over the reverse centering on a NM card. The overwhelming majority of casual vintage collectors have basically three 'grades' that they use to catagorize cards" 'Pretty sharp", "not bad" and "pretty rough". They will back up the truck and load up on 'pretty rough' cards, but those cards have to priced right. You can't try and get high book-- they'll just sit there and collect dust.
If I were selling modern the winning formula is even simpler: Just sell nothing but RC's of the hottest players from lower end sets. Screw SPX or Ultimate Collection-- just buy a ton of MVP and Victory RC's of Lebron, Roethlisberger, Caddy and Crosby and put 'em out there for $3 a piece. There are a couple dealers at Gibraltar who do this occasionally, and most of the time they clean up. Last year one guy put out dozens of 1986 Traded Bonds' priced at 12$ each and made $900 gross in 5 hours. Why? Believe it or not, he was the only guy there who was selling any.
People go to shows to get out of the house, maybe spend $40, and if they're feeling magnanimous buy sometihng small for the kids at home. They're rarely looking to plop down $600, yet judging by the kind of stock that most dealers bring to shows it seems like they haven't gotten that memo.
<< <i>It doesn't need to be that way, but that's the way all shows are going to go unless someone wises up to the fact that you can't keep running a regular show if every dealer is featuring the exact same merchandise. Card shows these days have just become 50 middle aged dealers all trying to pawn off the VG- EXMT 50's, 60's and 70's stuff that they don't want to slab. It's ridiculous. Want an EX- EXMT '61 Topps Aaron for $110? THEN GO TO A SHOW, because you'll have about 40 to choose from. Need some VG 1966 commons for a $1 each to finish off a set? Again, hit a local show; you'll have thousands to choose from >>
Very well stated! That is what Gibralter is always like also ! Except for a great suppies seller and the occasional good autograph, not much there but high priced low quality ungraded cars !
Robert
What a disappointment...as was stated, poor condition cards commanding premium grade prices, and the few dealers selling slabbed cards were doing so at multiples over SMR or what prices are being realized on ebay.
It's no wonder the dealers aren't doing any business at these shows. The ones I did interact with seemed more interested in talking to their partners behind the counter, eating, doing anything but engaging their customers.
It was a complete and total waste of a day, and has soured me on the idea of ever going to another show. I can get more communication through ebay sellers, better pricing, always open, and a much better all around experience.
Until dealers start to realize that raw cards need to priced according to their condition, and not 'high beckett', their sales at these shows are always going to suffer.
<< <i>I flew into Philly and went to the show on Saturday... what a disappointment, and I have a feeling a lot of the dealers share that sentiment. I couldn't believe how few people attended, and I didn't see anyone buying anything except a few people picking commons to complete sets. I talked to a few dealers, a couple said they had sold some mid-grade 60's Mantle's, but not one mention of a any large sales. Not that many of the dealers were helping the cause, lots of outragous price tags on a significant majority of their cards.
Fortunately, I went to the Friday ballgame at the new park (which is beautiful, but a tiny homerun launching pad with a jet stream to right center).
If anyone has an opportunity to go to a game against the Giants when Bonds is playing, it is quite a surreal experience. As a matter of fact, I've never seen anything even close to comparable, not even in the WWE are the "bad guy" wrestlers as hated as Bonds. I honestly don't know why the guy continues to play... he's practically a cripple in the field, he is no longer nearly as threatening at the plate, and he takes unbelievable heckling that would drive anyone completely nuts. The fans here have a lot of pent up anger (because the city hasn't had a team win anything in any sport in 26 years) that they are quick to unleash on the opponent or their own players if/when circumstances present themselves, and not one of them held back for Bonds. >>
Not my experience at all. I talked to a number of dealers today and they said the show was very good. I talked to one dealer from North Carolina and he said it was the best he had ever done. There is alot of good stuff there, you just have to take the time to look. I got some great 59's and there were some great 58's as well but I can't buy everything. chaz
All that said some good vintage stuff still can be found, it's just that there is far less of it these days and there are far fewer dealers selling it.
Stay classy,
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Obviously there are some idiots. The guy at the Toronto Expo who always sets up in the far back right corner comes to mind, and of course there are others. But most of them have usually been very nice to me. However, they don't seem to understand that you need to do something to distinguish yourself from everyone else there. I keep teasing the idea of buying a bunch of those crappy 'close out' lots on Ebay-- you know, the ones with the VG '70 Aarons and such-- and just tossing them out on the table and seeing what happens. From what I've seen that stuff would just fly off the shelf. When I was talking to Ernie at the Gibraltar show he told me the one sure-fire seller was the dollar bin filled with $1 cards from the 50's. It didn't matter what the condition was, or the player. If it was priced at a buck and pre- 1959 he could sell it within the three days of the show. I assume the same would be true of higher profile players from the '60's and '70's. I wouldn't price them at a buck, but I wouldn't price them any higher than 4$ or 5$.
I feel for these guys because they're the last of a dying breed. They haven't learned to adapt, and eventually it will kill them. But I have NO pity for the modern dealers who refuse to put out nice cards of today's biggest stars. To anyone here who's from Detroit and frequents Gibraltar I offer the following challenge: Next time you go to the show poke around and see how many Pujols RC's-- any make, any price point-- you can find in the display cases. I can almost guarantee you it will be lower than 15, and that's all the dealers combined. I mean, WTF? The BIGGEST STAR in baseball today, and modern card dealers-- who should have their ear to the hobby rail, as it were--can't be bothered to pick up some low end RC's of the guy? That's just inexcusable. If you aren't willing to do this then I don't want to hear you bellyaching when you can't move your Matthew LeCroy Jersey cards for $3 each.
<< <i>Comparing Gibraltar to the Fort is a joke. their is no comparison in the usual quality at the fort and gibraltar. I have set up at both I should know. However your assessment is pretty spot on for the majority of shows out there. >>
I didn't mean to speak of the Fort show in particular, as I've never been there. Just trying to put together some observations I've made from the other shows I've attended.
<< <i>I love BooPotts' thread. Most of it is spot on, and it really is true how put-off some dealers act when you approach their table. They either a) ignore you and all other customers and sit behind their showcases with their backs half-turned to you, eating, talking with their buddy, and doing anything to avoid interacting with you, or b) they spend so much time with another customer that you eventually get frustrated and just walk away. Many of these guys act so unhappy that they are even there, and I suspect many of them are wishing for the good ol' days of the 80's and early 90's.
All that said some good vintage stuff still can be found, it's just that there is far less of it these days and there are far fewer dealers selling it.
Stay classy,
Ron >>
The latest trend in dealer speak seems to be gushing over their latest Ebay sales of slabbed cards. 'Got this Schmidt RC from a guy, it came back a 9 and I sold it for two grand', etc. etc. I can't think of anything dumber than talking like this in front of a customer, since it makes it seem like you put nothing but 'rejects' in your display cases, and it keeps guys like me from ever looking through your stuff. And even if I don't end up buying anything you still want me poking through your displays, since IMExperience a table that has someone already there looking through cards is more likely to garner a sale from a passer-by.
Text
Yes, I have noticed that as well. The other, more subtle trend is for a guy to have a case full of slabbed commons, then boxes sitting beside those cases with ungraded commons and he tells customers, "oh yeah, you can find some 7's and 8's in there." I have heard that several times. Of course, anyone who believes that has only themselves to blame. Sometimes you can find a lazy dealer who doesn't have the inclination or the cash to slab every NM and better common he sees but it is not often. Dealers either play the grading game or they don't.
I did not attend the Fort Washington show either, but this thread seems to confirm it is similar to shows I have attended in the last couple of years. These days, I put a premium on whether a dealer acts like they want me to be at their table. If they are friendly and attentive, I'll look through their stuff and talk to them awhile. If they act like Rich Gove, I'm gone.
Stay classy,
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
And I though it was just me.
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
Most people in any profession are stubborn to change but these guys will be done soon enough if they dont.
The key is finding the dealers that do treat you good and have nice product and get there early. Do you really think you can roll in late Saturday and have raw Psa 9 type quality singles lying there with dealers begging you to buy it?????
That stuff is bought up by other dealers well before the show starts but if you have the patience to walk around and sift through the tons of binders you usually will be rewarded. There is just a ton of stuff at that show and I hope it continues.
One more great thing about the show was......No RICH GOVE with his list of rules and overgraded,overpriced gold star cards!!!