Why can't this guy send you another Paypal transaction, using his Amex card? There's no reason to 'backout' the chargeback. Just send the money again via paypal.
<< <i>i'm still waiting for flaminio, who is a major paypal/ebay stockholder, to defend this fraud. should be interesting. >>
LOL -- "major stockholder". Yes, I own a few shares of EBAY (which I have stated several times in the past), but in no sense would I consider myself "major".
And I won't defend fraud. But I will place blame where it should be -- with the buyer. This person could have just as easily wrote a bad check to rip Ira off, or used a stolen credit card. He chose to commit his fraud with PayPal -- does that make it PayPal's fault that this guy is a crook?
<< <i>Why can't this guy send you another Paypal transaction, using his Amex card? There's no reason to 'backout' the chargeback. Just send the money again via paypal. >>
'Cause he's a crook. He has no interest in making good on his transaction. His intent has clearly been shown to simply rip Ira off.
<< <i>i'm still waiting for flaminio, who is a major paypal/ebay stockholder, to defend this fraud. should be interesting. >>
LOL -- "major stockholder". Yes, I own a few shares of EBAY (which I have stated several times in the past), but in no sense would I consider myself "major".
And I won't defend fraud. But I will place blame where it should be -- with the buyer. This person could have just as easily wrote a bad check to rip Ira off, or used a stolen credit card. He chose to commit his fraud with PayPal -- does that make it PayPal's fault that this guy is a crook?
<< <i>Why can't this guy send you another Paypal transaction, using his Amex card? There's no reason to 'backout' the chargeback. Just send the money again via paypal. >>
'Cause he's a crook. He has no interest in making good on his transaction. His intent has clearly been shown to simply rip Ira off. >>
I'm still not so sure it really matters how it can happen (its not Paypal's fault but the guy who misused it) but the fact that it can.....kind of sounds like the "guns don't kill people argument". I'm sure its a small or no consolation to Ira that the problem was a dishonest buyer misusing Paypal. There is apparently still the seldom used process of waiting for a check or MO to clear? I've taken plenty of checks without a problem. If I only take checks or MOs and give sufficient time to clear there is no way I'll have some entity dipping into my checking account because some nimrod couldn't pay his AMEX bill.
Wow, I guess I can afford all those key dates in my Lincoln Cents collection after all! Anyone know if I can apply for a AmEx card online? What a great deal!
Seriously, all three, the thief (won't call him the "buyer" since he didn't buy the coin, he stole it), AmEx, and Paypal share in the blame in that order.
1. The thief thought he was going to get away with his crime. When he got caught he made a half-assed attempt to send an amount of $ that looked like he was showing good faith in his efforts, but was only protecting his butt from jail time. 2. AmEx approved and possibly encouraged a fraudulant chargeback for a significant amount of money near the end of the period that the chargback could be done. This was without any investigation or contact of the seller. 3. Paypal had an obligation to follow this up and work for the seller as diligently as they did for the buyer. Ultimatly they took the easy way out and were only protecting their bottom line. (What do we pay these overpriced fees for if there is zero protection for the seller? In every dispute I have seen, Paypal doen't seem to care who is right or wrong, they simply go where the $ is).
I would continue to lean on Paypal the hardest, but I would NOT let this thief off the hook and I would use every opportunity I could to remind him of his crime and the debt he still owes you. How much would it be to have a lawyer in his area draw up a simple contract to have him sign that states he will pay you back on an installment plan? He may not honor it, but it is one more paper in the trail.
<< <i>I'm still not so sure it really matters how it can happen (its not Paypal's fault but the guy who misused it) but the fact that it can.....kind of sounds like the "guns don't kill people argument". >>
Right. Do you blame the tool, or the person wielding the tool?
My question here, is why was PAYPAL so quick to pull Ira's funds back out of his bank account? Why didn't they conduct an investigation/confer with Ira to get his side of the transaction when they received the charge-back request? Had they bothered to do that in the first place, it would seem the crime would've never been committed!
I, for one, will no longer offer PAYPAL on my Ebay auctions... if they're going to be so eager to charge back your account like this, I don't need them.
<< <i>My question here, is why was PAYPAL so quick to pull Ira's funds back out of his bank account? Why didn't they conduct an investigation/confer with Ira to get his side of the transaction when they received the charge-back request? Had they bothered to do that in the first place, it would seem the crime would've never been committed!
I, for one, will no longer offer PAYPAL on my Ebay auctions... if they're going to be so eager to charge back your account like this, I don't need them.
the 'dude >>
To answer that question, PayPal states that if one reads their 30 pages of "terms," as soon as a chargeback is made, they freeze the funds and then only if they successfully dispute the chargeback with the cc company on behalf of the seller, will the funds be realeased. In this case, PayPal wrote that they didn't have enough information to dispute the case successfully with Amex, so after 35 days they simply released the funds to Amex. ( They had about 12 corroborating documents from me and a statement from buyer that the chargeback was in error and should be disregarded...none of that was "sufficient, I guess). My PayPal rep old me that Amex is very diffiicult, almost never reverses a chargeback, regardless of information provided. Nice to know but of little use to sellers as we never know if buyers have funds withdrawn from their checking accounts or charge to a credit card.
PayPal will not give me the Agent of Service information to me over the phone, it must be requested by my attorney on his letterhead, so I will do that. They surely make it difficult. Once we get the information, we'll serve a subpeona on PayPal.
<< <i>Why can't this guy send you another Paypal transaction, using his Amex card? There's no reason to 'backout' the chargeback. Just send the money again via paypal. >>
Amex has dropped him! Makes sense, actually, as he hadn't paid them a dime for almost 4 months. Even if they hadn't, what's to prevent buyer from initiating a chargeback again?
Selected Entity Status Information Current Entity Name: PAYPAL, INC.
Initial DOS Filing Date: JUNE 17, 2002 County: ALBANY Jurisdiction: DELAWARE Entity Type: FOREIGN BUSINESS CORPORATION Current Entity Status: ACTIVE
Selected Entity Address Information DOS Process (Address to which DOS will mail process if accepted on behalf of the entity) NATIONAL REGISTERED AGENTS INC 875 AVE OF THE AMERICAS STE 501 NEW YORK, NEW YORK, 10001
Chairman or Chief Executive Officer MATTHEW J BANNICK 2145 HAMILTON AVE SAN JOSE, CALIFORNIA, 95125
Principal Executive Office PAYPAL, INC. 2145 HAMILTON AVE SAN JOSE, CALIFORNIA, 95125
Registered Agent NATIONAL REGISTERED AGENTS, INC. 875 AVENUE OF THE AMERICAS SUITE 501 NEW YORK, NEW YORK, 10001
NOTE: New York State does not issue organizational identification numbers.
Taken just now from the NYS Department of State's web site. Hope this is helpful. --csw
PayPal will not give me the Agent of Service information to me over the phone, it must be requested by my attorney on his letterhead, so I will do that. They surely make it difficult. Once we get the information, we'll serve a subpeona on PayPal.
This is too funny and I doubt it's legal. So if you don't have a lawyer they won't give you the information? Since when can you NOT represent yourself.
Paypal is bull$hit throwing every obstacle in your way. They have all the evidence and refuse to exercise common sense. Personally I would take this to your local TV media and embarass the crap out of them and maybe an expose would be done to change the rules.
I NEVER accept paypal on large ticket items and will now never accept for them anything more than $50, which pretty eliminates 99% of the stuff I sell.
One day they'll wake up. Meanwhile I am eagerly awaiting Goggle's auction service which I predict will bury ebay and paypal.
Maybe all you guys should boycott PayPal. This is incredible to me since it was 4 months later. Who needs to fret about their sales, unsure they are final, months later???
Sorry to hear that, Ira. BTW, nice to see you in Columbus.
<< <i>This is a true account..it just happened to me.
On Nov. 2, 2005, a bidder used BIN now to purchase a 1909 S VDB 1c PCGS MS-65 RD. I sent it to his address via Registered Mail. He signed for it on Nov. 10 and left me favorable feedback on Nov. 12. So far so good.
On March 21, 2006 I got a chargeback for the full amount ($6112.00). Buyer stated that it was an unauthorized charge.
Sent an e-mail to buyer...no response. PayPal said they were investigating. Sent PayPal copies of the auction, copy of the positive feedback, a copy of the Registered Mail receipt and a copy of the USPS page showing confirmed delivery.
Fast foward a bit. I contacted the police in buyer's small Alabama town and an investgator hauled him in. Called me back with buyer in tow. Buyer stated that he did indeed get coin and was hoping to resell it on eBay for a profit. Didn't succeed (20 feedback score) so he consigned to a dealer in Birmingham who told him he sold it at a huge loss and gives him $3500, which buyer spent. He doesn't pay one cent towrads his credit catd bill (Amex) in over 3 months. Amex suggested he file a chargeback for unauthorized use of his credit card which he can simply do over the phone. He does that, PayPal pulls the $$ from my account and tells me they always try to go to bat for their sellers.
Meanwhile, buyer, now frightened of possible pending charges of mail and wire fraud, contacts Amex says he wants to reverse the chargeback. Amex tells him no dice. He wirites to PayPal & says it was all a mistake and asks them to release funds. Paypal stated they will contact Amex. After 35 days, PayPal writes me that they do not feel they can successfully dispute the chargeback and the case is closed. I'm out the funds! No appeal..read PayPal rules they say.
They DID tell me at the start of this saga that I shouldn't be surprised if they are not able to reverse the chargeback. Under PayPal's agreement with credit card companies, only the CC companies can have the final say. Seems Amex felt they could have the money from me and not worry about fighting for funds from buyer. PayPal is the credit card companies' safety net it seems!
Monday I'm going to ask PayPal for the New York State registered agent of service so I can serve him notice of a pending lawsuit. To add insult to injury, PayPal took an additional $142 from me as a transaction and investigatory expense when credit card company refused to rescind the chargeback order.
Other details: A signed & dated letter from the buyer that he made a mistake and that he intends to contact PayPal and Amex to get the chargeback cancelled. This was ignored by PayPal and Amex even though PayPal notified me by e-mail stated the buyer wished to cancel the chargeback and had contacted them. Seems the CC company had no intention ever of relinquishing the funds that belonged to me.
Subsequently, buyer sent me $1800 as all he could pay. These were good funds in the form of postal money orders. I guess I was lucky to get that.
Ira >>
Wow...that sucks!
It sounds like the buyer is lying through his teeth. Why would Amex refuse to let him put money back on his card (i.e., reverse the chargeback)? When was the last time you heard of a credit card company giving up money? What you're looking at is someone who got caught in a wire fraud scheme, who's trying to talk his way out of it by saying the credit card company won't let him do the right thing. If Amex had any influence on his decision, it was probably to the tune of, "If you lied to us about an unauthorized charge, you've commited credit card fraud." He's screwed either way he goes. That's why you haven't gotten your money back.
My advice would be to pursue the fraud charges against him, and sic your lawyer after Amex, if it comes to that. They're culpable if they know that he's using them to defraud people.
If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.
If I remember my dealings with AMEX, they record every conversation with a customer. There has to be a recording of the conversation between the scumback and AMEX. Maybe that's what your lawyer should go after.
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
<< <i>Didn't the cops haul this guy in for questioning? Well, can they arrest him for fraud or some criminal charge? >>
If I hadn't accepted a portion of the chargeback from him, they would have. As it is, and not aware of at the time, was that by accepting a partial payment, the whole scenario became a civil matter, no longer under the criminal court's jurisdiction.
<< <i>Didn't the cops haul this guy in for questioning? Well, can they arrest him for fraud or some criminal charge? >>
If I hadn't accepted a portion of the chargeback from him, they would have. As it is, and not aware of at the time, was that by accepting a partial payment, the whole scenario became a civil matter, no longer under the criminal court's jurisdiction.
Ira >>
yes, similar to businesses accepting partial payments on bad checks for example. If they come and see us at work and have accepted anything, we explain that to them and direct them to the court to file civilly.
Ira, I don't know about NY but what are the limits for small claims? Are you able to sue your bidder in your local court and ultimately have a lien placed on him? My co-worker did that to an out of state seller on ebay that shafted him thru our court.....of course the amount was MUCH smaller. He didn't need an attorney to do this and only had the 40.00 filing expense which he added to the judgement.
As it is, and not aware of at the time, was that by accepting a partial payment, the whole scenario became a civil matter, no longer under the criminal court's jurisdiction.
Although of course every state's criminal laws are different, I'm highly skeptical that you were correctly advised on this score. Why should the unwitting acceptance of a partial payment obviate criminal wrongdoing?
I'd seek a second opinion. Ask your local prosecutor.
Ditto on federal, as opposed to state, criminal charges (e.g. mail fraud).
Man, this reeks. I wish you all the best but certain things just do not make sense. I'll need to think about this one for a bit. There must be an answer short of having to pay this person a visit.
<< <i>If I hadn't accepted a portion of the chargeback from him, they would have. As it is, and not aware of at the time, was that by accepting a partial payment, the whole scenario became a civil matter, no longer under the criminal court's jurisdiction. >>
It seems like IRA did everything right and still AMEX nailed him. I mean, what more could Ira have done to show he completed the transaction sucessfully? Sure the buyer is a crook but I think AMEX is the real culprit here. As for PayPal, they should stop taking AMEX unless they renegotiate the terms of their contract but when AMEX sucks $6k out of PayPal's account, of course PayPal is going to put that on you. PayPal doesn't want to take a $6k loss, nor should they. AMEX doesn't want to take a $6k loss either, and of course the buyer should pay the $6k but since he deadbeated, it is 100% on AMEX as they are the ones that extended him the buyer the credit.
More years ago than I would like to remember I set up our first credit card program in the bank I worked for. Over the years I saw so much fraud it made us very leary of extending credit card credit. It was a convenience for our good customers and not viewed as a money maker. Fast forward to today and for some institutions its a big money maker even though they eat hundreds of thousands of dollars in charge offs. I see credit bureaus every day with proof of that.
I never have and never will use paypal in buying or selling on ebay. You have the double whammy of them owning the service. As I have pointed out numerous times most folks are honest but it only takes one to screw you with paypal and the convenience suddenly becomes less convenient. Unless and untill there is a major boycott of them they hold all the power. Good luck Ira.
Ira, sorry to hear that. I have been burned a few times on items $100 to $200 range where buyers have not only been able to hit me with a chargeback from Paypal, but also file for a claim on Postal Insurance, claiming that the item had fallen through a tear in the package, then get a refund from their credit card company, AND kept the coin, even though they left feedback saying they were pleased! Any chance on reversing the Birmingham transaction? After all, the guy didn't have clear title to the coin and the dealer who handled it was trading in stolen merchandise.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Alas, it is true. If you accept ANY GOOD FUNDS from the buyer, it changes from a criminal theft to a civil matter of owing money, which you cannot be jailed for. We had someone buy a $5000 diamond ring from the retail store that I managed. The shop owner accepted $100 in cash and a check for the balance. When the check bounced, she found out that the district attorney would not accept the case. Apparently, more crooks know of this loophole than honest sellers.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>Alas, it is true. If you accept ANY GOOD FUNDS from the buyer, it changes from a criminal theft to a civil matter of owing money, which you cannot be jailed for. We had someone buy a $5000 diamond ring from the retail store that I managed. The shop owner accepted $100 in cash and a check for the balance. When the check bounced, she found out that the district attorney would not accept the case. Apparently, more crooks know of this loophole than honest sellers. >>
Careful! State laws may differ on this. There's also a federal mail fraud issue involved. Besides, it looks like the immediate claim is a contract claim against PayPal and perhaps American Express and buyer as well. Sounds to me like Ira needs a lawyer to sort all this out.
<< <i>For 6K I'd be going after AMEX in court. Or PayPal, or both. Just a whiff of a lawsuit and chances are good you'd have your money in short order. >>
Sage advice.
In addition to the obvious breach of contract, fraud, deceit, UCC, etc. causes of action, frame a calim on detrimental reliance (you relied on the credit card company's obligation to honor payment from a bona fide cardholder in shipping the goods) and enjoy the litigation processs.
<< <i>Alas, it is true. If you accept ANY GOOD FUNDS from the buyer, it changes from a criminal theft to a civil matter of owing money, which you cannot be jailed for. We had someone buy a $5000 diamond ring from the retail store that I managed. The shop owner accepted $100 in cash and a check for the balance. When the check bounced, she found out that the district attorney would not accept the case. Apparently, more crooks know of this loophole than honest sellers. >>
That's odd - I thought writing bad checks was illegal. I guess because it was only a $100 check it was below their prosecution threshhold.
<< <i>Alas, it is true. If you accept ANY GOOD FUNDS from the buyer, it changes from a criminal theft to a civil matter of owing money, which you cannot be jailed for. We had someone buy a $5000 diamond ring from the retail store that I managed. The shop owner accepted $100 in cash and a check for the balance. When the check bounced, she found out that the district attorney would not accept the case. Apparently, more crooks know of this loophole than honest sellers. >>
That's odd - I thought writing bad checks was illegal. I guess because it was only a $100 check it was below their prosecution threshhold. >>
1. it sounds as though Amex basis for chargeback is pretextual and unsustainable. Unauthorized use of an instrument or credit card only occurs when the person or entity lawfully entitled to exercise dominion and control and use of the instrument or card lacks the authority or right to do so.
From what you have written, that is not the case. Furthermore, unauthorized use is an injury which is personal to the wronged owner, and can be forgiven and waived. Ratification, which is approval conferred after-the-fact, relates back to the time of use and makes the use lawful and authorized.
Thus, even if an initial use is unauthorized, its subsequent ratification makes it binding upon the owner of the instrument or card.
2. because eBay Paypal accounts can only be accessed and used by their owners, and because your purchaser acknowledged that fact in his positive feedback (`I bought this coin from Ira'), unauthorized use would seem to be precluded from being asserted as a defense to the duty of Paypal and Amex to honor the transaction.
3. the contract law doctrine of privity generally bars persons who are not a party to a contract from suing a third party with whom they have not directly contracted. One exception concerns intended third party beneficiaries, entities which are not parties to the contract between A and B but who are intended beneficiaries of the performance of their contract. That status is related to the legal doctrine of standing, which bars parties who are "strangers to a contract" from suing to enforce it. You appear to possess standing to sue Amex as an intended third party beneficiary of its contract with Buyer, but Amer might/will probably claim that you dont if you sue them.
4. although you can obtain jurisdiction over Amex for lawsuit filing and service purposes under the "doing business in New York" provisions of Civil Practice Law & Rules Rule 302, you might not be able to sue it in Small Claims Court unless Amex maintains a physical presence in the New York State County in which you live (or sue it). because NY Small Claims courts have only limited jurisdiction to exercise authority over persons and entities who are sued.
I suspect the NY small claims court will have jurisdiction over AmEx (via the State's long-arm statute, if for no other reason), but you can sue for only up to $5,000, which is the statutory limit.
Allege fraud; willful misrepresentation to induce your reliance, etc.
Name Paypal, Amex, and the scuzball that bought the coin and lied about unauthorized use as defendants.
Allege that Paypal made money, Amex made money, the Alabamy con artist made money, but you lost and they all conspired to your detriment. Amex can STILL probably get a judgment against the other guy if Amex cross-complains, and they most likely will do that if this gets that far.
You can prolly foggeddabout NY state court here. You have to sue in the county where they do business; it is a NY venue rule and you cannot properly serve them with a Monroe County complaint in say Sullivan County. And they won't be as anxious to settle up if you sue in NY state courts. Also, you cannot allege fraud or seek punitives in NY small claims ct, IIRC. I moved from Rochester two years ago and the rules can change anytime, however.
Sure, if you can find a way to sue in small claims, locally and get back the $4500 or so (if I read the thread correctly) plus court costs that you are out. That would be best, if possible, but I seriously doubt it can be pulled off. You *might* be able to file in Albany or where ever their agent is, if that is do-able. Maybe you can file during a coin trip and save the extra expenses? Minimizing your damages is my main concern. If you have to sue outside small claims ct, make it a Federal case. Go after punitives to get your attorney's fees back. It is about the only way to recoup under the facts as I understand them. And hey, I never steered you wrong before, Ira.
Sadly, I must tell you that you had him by the short hairs when he sent the money order. The next time rectum that pulls this, leave him in jail until he coughes up the whole dime. You would be surprised how fast that guy would find another Peter to rob to pay Paul when Paul holds the key to the jail cell....
Back in Federal court, Allege over 75,000 in damages for FRCP diversity jurisdiction puposes under 28 USC 1332. I would allege several million in punitives; you just don't know what it will take to make them feel the pinch of "smart money" until after you review their financial records.
A demand letter from your attorney is prolly in order. When he mentions puntive damages, fraud, RICO Conspiracy and a possible class action if enough plaintiffs can be found, you shall see if they want to settle up.
If not: A couple of thousand, or maybe even $100,000 in exemplary damages just won't do it when they can turn around and do this to others and get away with it, over and over...
<< <i>More years ago than I would like to remember I set up our first credit card program in the bank I worked for. Over the years I saw so much fraud it made us very leary of extending credit card credit. It was a convenience for our good customers and not viewed as a money maker. Fast forward to today and for some institutions its a big money maker even though they eat hundreds of thousands of dollars in charge offs. I see credit bureaus every day with proof of that.
I never have and never will use paypal in buying or selling on ebay. You have the double whammy of them owning the service. As I have pointed out numerous times most folks are honest but it only takes one to screw you with paypal and the convenience suddenly becomes less convenient. Unless and untill there is a major boycott of them they hold all the power. Good luck Ira. >>
interesting post considering your comments on the outing of one such fraud.
Comments
Why can't this guy send you another Paypal transaction, using his Amex card? There's no reason to 'backout' the chargeback. Just send the money again via paypal.
<< <i>i'm still waiting for flaminio, who is a major paypal/ebay stockholder, to defend this fraud. should be interesting. >>
LOL -- "major stockholder". Yes, I own a few shares of EBAY (which I have stated several times in the past), but in no sense would I consider myself "major".
And I won't defend fraud. But I will place blame where it should be -- with the buyer. This person could have just as easily wrote a bad check to rip Ira off, or used a stolen credit card. He chose to commit his fraud with PayPal -- does that make it PayPal's fault that this guy is a crook?
<< <i>Why can't this guy send you another Paypal transaction, using his Amex card? There's no reason to 'backout' the chargeback. Just send the money again via paypal. >>
'Cause he's a crook. He has no interest in making good on his transaction. His intent has clearly been shown to simply rip Ira off.
<< <i>
<< <i>i'm still waiting for flaminio, who is a major paypal/ebay stockholder, to defend this fraud. should be interesting. >>
LOL -- "major stockholder". Yes, I own a few shares of EBAY (which I have stated several times in the past), but in no sense would I consider myself "major".
And I won't defend fraud. But I will place blame where it should be -- with the buyer. This person could have just as easily wrote a bad check to rip Ira off, or used a stolen credit card. He chose to commit his fraud with PayPal -- does that make it PayPal's fault that this guy is a crook?
<< <i>Why can't this guy send you another Paypal transaction, using his Amex card? There's no reason to 'backout' the chargeback. Just send the money again via paypal. >>
'Cause he's a crook. He has no interest in making good on his transaction. His intent has clearly been shown to simply rip Ira off. >>
I'm still not so sure it really matters how it can happen (its not Paypal's fault but the guy who misused it) but the fact that it can.....kind of sounds like the "guns don't kill people argument". I'm sure its a small or no consolation to Ira that the problem was a dishonest buyer misusing Paypal. There is apparently still the seldom used process of waiting for a check or MO to clear? I've taken plenty of checks without a problem. If I only take checks or MOs and give sufficient time to clear there is no way I'll have some entity dipping into my checking account because some nimrod couldn't pay his AMEX bill.
Seriously, all three, the thief (won't call him the "buyer" since he didn't buy the coin, he stole it), AmEx, and Paypal share in the blame in that order.
1. The thief thought he was going to get away with his crime. When he got caught he made a half-assed attempt to send an amount of $ that looked like he was showing good faith in his efforts, but was only protecting his butt from jail time.
2. AmEx approved and possibly encouraged a fraudulant chargeback for a significant amount of money near the end of the period that the chargback could be done. This was without any investigation or contact of the seller.
3. Paypal had an obligation to follow this up and work for the seller as diligently as they did for the buyer. Ultimatly they took the easy way out and were only protecting their bottom line. (What do we pay these overpriced fees for if there is zero protection for the seller? In every dispute I have seen, Paypal doen't seem to care who is right or wrong, they simply go where the $ is).
I would continue to lean on Paypal the hardest, but I would NOT let this thief off the hook and I would use every opportunity I could to remind him of his crime and the debt he still owes you. How much would it be to have a lawyer in his area draw up a simple contract to have him sign that states he will pay you back on an installment plan? He may not honor it, but it is one more paper in the trail.
Good luck.
<< <i>I'm still not so sure it really matters how it can happen (its not Paypal's fault but the guy who misused it) but the fact that it can.....kind of sounds like the "guns don't kill people argument". >>
Right. Do you blame the tool, or the person wielding the tool?
I, for one, will no longer offer PAYPAL on my Ebay auctions... if they're going to be so eager to charge back your account like this, I don't need them.
the 'dude
<< <i>My question here, is why was PAYPAL so quick to pull Ira's funds back out of his bank account? Why didn't they conduct an investigation/confer with Ira to get his side of the transaction when they received the charge-back request? Had they bothered to do that in the first place, it would seem the crime would've never been committed!
I, for one, will no longer offer PAYPAL on my Ebay auctions... if they're going to be so eager to charge back your account like this, I don't need them.
the 'dude >>
To answer that question, PayPal states that if one reads their 30 pages of "terms," as soon as a chargeback is made, they freeze the funds and then only if they successfully dispute the chargeback with the cc company on behalf of the seller, will the funds be realeased. In this case, PayPal wrote that they didn't have enough information to dispute the case successfully with Amex, so after 35 days they simply released the funds to Amex. ( They had about 12 corroborating documents from me and a statement from buyer that the chargeback was in error and should be disregarded...none of that was "sufficient, I guess). My PayPal rep old me that Amex is very diffiicult, almost never reverses a chargeback, regardless of information provided. Nice to know but of little use to sellers as we never know if buyers have funds withdrawn from their checking accounts or charge to a credit card.
PayPal will not give me the Agent of Service information to me over the phone, it must be requested by my attorney on his letterhead, so I will do that. They surely make it difficult. Once we get the information, we'll serve a subpeona on PayPal.
Ira
<< <i>Why can't this guy send you another Paypal transaction, using his Amex card? There's no reason to 'backout' the chargeback. Just send the money again via paypal. >>
Amex has dropped him! Makes sense, actually, as he hadn't paid them a dime for almost 4 months. Even if they hadn't, what's to prevent buyer from initiating a chargeback again?
Ira
gotta say, this kind of loss would oblige me to appear at the front door of the buyer, at my expense. you know where the buyer lives.
Didn't the cops haul this guy in for questioning? Well, can they arrest him for fraud or some criminal charge?
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
NYS Department of State
Division of Corporations
Entity Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Selected Entity Name: PAYPAL, INC.
Selected Entity Status Information Current Entity Name: PAYPAL, INC.
Initial DOS Filing Date: JUNE 17, 2002
County: ALBANY
Jurisdiction: DELAWARE
Entity Type: FOREIGN BUSINESS CORPORATION
Current Entity Status: ACTIVE
Selected Entity Address Information DOS Process (Address to which DOS will mail process if accepted on behalf of the entity)
NATIONAL REGISTERED AGENTS INC
875 AVE OF THE AMERICAS
STE 501
NEW YORK, NEW YORK, 10001
Chairman or Chief Executive Officer
MATTHEW J BANNICK
2145 HAMILTON AVE
SAN JOSE, CALIFORNIA, 95125
Principal Executive Office
PAYPAL, INC.
2145 HAMILTON AVE
SAN JOSE, CALIFORNIA, 95125
Registered Agent
NATIONAL REGISTERED AGENTS, INC.
875 AVENUE OF THE AMERICAS
SUITE 501
NEW YORK, NEW YORK, 10001
NOTE: New York State does not issue organizational identification numbers.
Taken just now from the NYS Department of State's web site. Hope this is helpful.
--csw
Tiger trout, Deerfield River, c. 2001.
I've never had a problem with them but I'm a small time user. I've heard many horror stories, some of them on the forum.
This is too funny and I doubt it's legal. So if you don't have a lawyer they won't give you the information? Since when can you NOT represent yourself.
Paypal is bull$hit throwing every obstacle in your way. They have all the evidence and refuse to exercise common sense. Personally I would take this to your local TV media and embarass the crap out of them and maybe an expose would be done to change the rules.
I NEVER accept paypal on large ticket items and will now never accept for them anything more than $50, which pretty eliminates 99% of the stuff I sell.
One day they'll wake up. Meanwhile I am eagerly awaiting Goggle's auction service which I predict will bury ebay and paypal.
but this has cinched it for me!
when i do sell coins, (rarely when i do) ...i'll not have a paypal account!
if it loses a few bids ...well so be it!
i sell only decent stuff...
people won't read that i'll take money orders,...cash,...cashiers cheques...and personal cheques
...i mean DAMN!
right there is 4 ways to pay me.... for something i'll have to mail to you anyway!
That should be enough ways!
pay me for it ...i'll send it to you...if you like it, keep it!.....transaction finished!
pay me for it ...i'll send it to you...if you DON'T like it...send it back to me , i'll refund your money...transaction done!
no ones gonna get to hold the money from the sale...AND the coin both in their grubby little paws 6 states away ....at the same time!
at least not from me!
Sorry to hear that, Ira. BTW, nice to see you in Columbus.
<< <i>This is a true account..it just happened to me.
On Nov. 2, 2005, a bidder used BIN now to purchase a 1909 S VDB 1c PCGS MS-65 RD. I sent it to his address via Registered Mail. He signed for it on Nov. 10 and left me favorable feedback on Nov. 12. So far so good.
On March 21, 2006 I got a chargeback for the full amount ($6112.00). Buyer stated that it was an unauthorized charge.
Sent an e-mail to buyer...no response. PayPal said they were investigating. Sent PayPal copies of the auction, copy of the positive feedback, a copy of the Registered Mail receipt and a copy of the USPS page showing confirmed delivery.
Fast foward a bit. I contacted the police in buyer's small Alabama town and an investgator hauled him in. Called me back with buyer in tow. Buyer stated that he did indeed get coin and was hoping to resell it on eBay for a profit. Didn't succeed (20 feedback score) so he consigned to a dealer in Birmingham who told him he sold it at a huge loss and gives him $3500, which buyer spent. He doesn't pay one cent towrads his credit catd bill (Amex) in over 3 months. Amex suggested he file a chargeback for unauthorized use of his credit card which he can simply do over the phone. He does that, PayPal pulls the $$ from my account and tells me they always try to go to bat for their sellers.
Meanwhile, buyer, now frightened of possible pending charges of mail and wire fraud, contacts Amex says he wants to reverse the chargeback. Amex tells him no dice. He wirites to PayPal & says it was all a mistake and asks them to release funds. Paypal stated they will contact Amex. After 35 days, PayPal writes me that they do not feel they can successfully dispute the chargeback and the case is closed. I'm out the funds! No appeal..read PayPal rules they say.
They DID tell me at the start of this saga that I shouldn't be surprised if they are not able to reverse the chargeback. Under PayPal's agreement with credit card companies, only the CC companies can have the final say. Seems Amex felt they could have the money from me and not worry about fighting for funds from buyer. PayPal is the credit card companies' safety net it seems!
Monday I'm going to ask PayPal for the New York State registered agent of service so I can serve him notice of a pending lawsuit. To add insult to injury, PayPal took an additional $142 from me as a transaction and investigatory expense when credit card company refused to rescind the chargeback order.
Other details: A signed & dated letter from the buyer that he made a mistake and that he intends to contact PayPal and Amex to get the chargeback cancelled. This was ignored by PayPal and Amex even though PayPal notified me by e-mail stated the buyer wished to cancel the chargeback and had contacted them. Seems the CC company had no intention ever of relinquishing the funds that belonged to me.
Subsequently, buyer sent me $1800 as all he could pay. These were good funds in the form of postal money orders. I guess I was lucky to get that.
Ira >>
Wow...that sucks!
It sounds like the buyer is lying through his teeth. Why would Amex refuse to let him put money back on his card (i.e., reverse the chargeback)? When was the last time you heard of a credit card company giving up money? What you're looking at is someone who got caught in a wire fraud scheme, who's trying to talk his way out of it by saying the credit card company won't let him do the right thing. If Amex had any influence on his decision, it was probably to the tune of, "If you lied to us about an unauthorized charge, you've commited credit card fraud." He's screwed either way he goes. That's why you haven't gotten your money back.
My advice would be to pursue the fraud charges against him, and sic your lawyer after Amex, if it comes to that. They're culpable if they know that he's using them to defraud people.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
Gary
Post your story here for others to learn:
Paypalsucks.com
<< <i>Didn't the cops haul this guy in for questioning? Well, can they arrest him for fraud or some criminal charge? >>
If I hadn't accepted a portion of the chargeback from him, they would have. As it is, and not aware of at the time, was that by accepting a partial payment, the whole scenario became a civil matter, no longer under the criminal court's jurisdiction.
Ira
<< <i>
<< <i>Didn't the cops haul this guy in for questioning? Well, can they arrest him for fraud or some criminal charge? >>
If I hadn't accepted a portion of the chargeback from him, they would have. As it is, and not aware of at the time, was that by accepting a partial payment, the whole scenario became a civil matter, no longer under the criminal court's jurisdiction.
Ira >>
yes, similar to businesses accepting partial payments on bad checks for example. If they come and see us at work and have accepted anything, we explain that to them and direct them to the court to file civilly.
Ira, I don't know about NY but what are the limits for small claims? Are you able to sue your bidder in your local court and ultimately have a lien placed on him? My co-worker did that to an out of state seller on ebay that shafted him thru our court.....of course the amount was MUCH smaller. He didn't need an attorney to do this and only had the 40.00 filing expense which he added to the judgement.
Although of course every state's criminal laws are different, I'm highly skeptical that you were correctly advised on this score. Why should the unwitting acceptance of a partial payment obviate criminal wrongdoing?
I'd seek a second opinion. Ask your local prosecutor.
Ditto on federal, as opposed to state, criminal charges (e.g. mail fraud).
Tiger trout, Deerfield River, c. 2001.
<< <i>If I hadn't accepted a portion of the chargeback from him, they would have. As it is, and not aware of at the time, was that by accepting a partial payment, the whole scenario became a civil matter, no longer under the criminal court's jurisdiction. >>
Good piece of info
Betcha 5 bucks the deadbeat drinks beer, smokes cigarettes, and carries a cellphone.
I never have and never will use paypal in buying or selling on ebay. You have the double whammy of them owning the service. As I have pointed out numerous times most folks are honest but it only takes one to screw you with paypal and the convenience suddenly becomes less convenient. Unless and untill there is a major boycott of them they hold all the power. Good luck Ira.
able to hit me with a chargeback from Paypal, but also file for a claim on Postal Insurance, claiming that the item had
fallen through a tear in the package, then get a refund from their credit card company, AND kept the coin, even though they
left feedback saying they were pleased! Any chance on reversing the Birmingham transaction? After all, the guy didn't
have clear title to the coin and the dealer who handled it was trading in stolen merchandise.
of owing money, which you cannot be jailed for. We had someone buy a $5000 diamond ring from the retail store that
I managed. The shop owner accepted $100 in cash and a check for the balance. When the check bounced, she found out
that the district attorney would not accept the case. Apparently, more crooks know of this loophole than honest sellers.
<< <i>Alas, it is true. If you accept ANY GOOD FUNDS from the buyer, it changes from a criminal theft to a civil matter
of owing money, which you cannot be jailed for. We had someone buy a $5000 diamond ring from the retail store that
I managed. The shop owner accepted $100 in cash and a check for the balance. When the check bounced, she found out
that the district attorney would not accept the case. Apparently, more crooks know of this loophole than honest sellers. >>
Careful! State laws may differ on this. There's also a federal mail fraud issue involved. Besides, it looks like the immediate claim is a contract claim against PayPal and perhaps American Express and buyer as well. Sounds to me like Ira needs a lawyer to sort all this out.
<< <i>For 6K I'd be going after AMEX in court. Or PayPal, or both. Just a whiff of a lawsuit and chances are good you'd have your money in short order. >>
Sage advice.
In addition to the obvious breach of contract, fraud, deceit, UCC, etc. causes of action, frame a calim on detrimental reliance (you relied on the credit card company's obligation to honor payment from a bona fide cardholder in shipping the goods) and enjoy the litigation processs.
<< <i>Alas, it is true. If you accept ANY GOOD FUNDS from the buyer, it changes from a criminal theft to a civil matter
of owing money, which you cannot be jailed for. We had someone buy a $5000 diamond ring from the retail store that
I managed. The shop owner accepted $100 in cash and a check for the balance. When the check bounced, she found out
that the district attorney would not accept the case. Apparently, more crooks know of this loophole than honest sellers. >>
That's odd - I thought writing bad checks was illegal. I guess because it was only a $100 check it was below their prosecution threshhold.
<< <i>
<< <i>Alas, it is true. If you accept ANY GOOD FUNDS from the buyer, it changes from a criminal theft to a civil matter
of owing money, which you cannot be jailed for. We had someone buy a $5000 diamond ring from the retail store that
I managed. The shop owner accepted $100 in cash and a check for the balance. When the check bounced, she found out
that the district attorney would not accept the case. Apparently, more crooks know of this loophole than honest sellers. >>
That's odd - I thought writing bad checks was illegal. I guess because it was only a $100 check it was below their prosecution threshhold. >>
Just read it closer - not even a $100 check.
I more I read about Ira's problem, the more Charles Bronson's name enters my thoughts.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
<< <i>I more I read about Ira's problem, the more Charles Bronson's name enters my thoughts. >>
I was thinking more along the lines of Chuck Norris. This crook needs a roundhouse kick to the head.
Remember, Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits.
Four thoughts:
1. it sounds as though Amex basis for chargeback is pretextual and unsustainable. Unauthorized use
of an instrument or credit card only occurs when the person or entity lawfully entitled to exercise
dominion and control and use of the instrument or card lacks the authority or right to do so.
From what you have written, that is not the case. Furthermore, unauthorized use is an injury
which is personal to the wronged owner, and can be forgiven and waived. Ratification, which
is approval conferred after-the-fact, relates back to the time of use and makes the use lawful
and authorized.
Thus, even if an initial use is unauthorized, its subsequent ratification makes it binding upon
the owner of the instrument or card.
2. because eBay Paypal accounts can only be accessed and used by their owners, and because
your purchaser acknowledged that fact in his positive feedback (`I bought this coin from Ira'),
unauthorized use would seem to be precluded from being asserted as a defense to the duty
of Paypal and Amex to honor the transaction.
3. the contract law doctrine of privity generally bars persons who are not a party to a contract
from suing a third party with whom they have not directly contracted. One exception concerns
intended third party beneficiaries, entities which are not parties to the contract between A and
B but who are intended beneficiaries of the performance of their contract. That status is related
to the legal doctrine of standing, which bars parties who are "strangers to a contract" from suing
to enforce it. You appear to possess standing to sue Amex as an intended third party beneficiary
of its contract with Buyer, but Amer might/will probably claim that you dont if you sue them.
4. although you can obtain jurisdiction over Amex for lawsuit filing and service purposes under
the "doing business in New York" provisions of Civil Practice Law & Rules Rule 302, you might
not be able to sue it in Small Claims Court unless Amex maintains a physical presence in the
New York State County in which you live (or sue it). because NY Small Claims courts have only
limited jurisdiction to exercise authority over persons and entities who are sued.
Good luck. It angers me to see people hosed.
Tiger trout, Deerfield River, c. 2001.
Sue in Federal court.
Allege fraud; willful misrepresentation to induce your reliance, etc.
Name Paypal, Amex, and the scuzball that bought the coin and lied about unauthorized use as defendants.
Allege that Paypal made money, Amex made money, the Alabamy con artist made money, but you lost and they all conspired to your detriment. Amex can STILL probably get a judgment against the other guy if Amex cross-complains, and they most likely will do that if this gets that far.
You can prolly foggeddabout NY state court here. You have to sue in the county where they do business; it is a NY venue rule and you cannot properly serve them with a Monroe County complaint in say Sullivan County. And they won't be as anxious to settle up if you sue in NY state courts. Also, you cannot allege fraud or seek punitives in NY small claims ct, IIRC. I moved from Rochester two years ago and the rules can change anytime, however.
Sure, if you can find a way to sue in small claims, locally and get back the $4500 or so (if I read the thread correctly) plus court costs that you are out.
That would be best, if possible, but I seriously doubt it can be pulled off. You *might* be able to file in Albany or where ever their agent is, if that is do-able. Maybe you can file during a coin trip and save the extra expenses? Minimizing your damages is my main concern. If you have to sue outside small claims ct, make it a Federal case. Go after punitives to get your attorney's fees back. It is about the only way to recoup under the facts as I understand them. And hey, I never steered you wrong before, Ira.
Sadly, I must tell you that you had him by the short hairs when he sent the money order. The next time rectum that pulls this, leave him in jail until he coughes up the whole dime. You would be surprised how fast that guy would find another Peter to rob to pay Paul when Paul holds the key to the jail cell....
Back in Federal court,
Allege over 75,000 in damages for FRCP diversity jurisdiction puposes under 28 USC 1332. I would allege several million in punitives; you just don't know what it will take to make them feel the pinch of "smart money" until after you review their financial records.
A demand letter from your attorney is prolly in order. When he mentions puntive damages, fraud, RICO Conspiracy and a possible class action if enough plaintiffs can be found, you shall see if they want to settle up.
If not:
A couple of thousand, or maybe even $100,000 in exemplary damages just won't do it when they can turn around and do this to others and get away with it, over and over...
HTH
G/L
<< <i>More years ago than I would like to remember I set up our first credit card program in the bank I worked for. Over the years I saw so much fraud it made us very leary of extending credit card credit. It was a convenience for our good customers and not viewed as a money maker. Fast forward to today and for some institutions its a big money maker even though they eat hundreds of thousands of dollars in charge offs. I see credit bureaus every day with proof of that.
I never have and never will use paypal in buying or selling on ebay. You have the double whammy of them owning the service. As I have pointed out numerous times most folks are honest but it only takes one to screw you with paypal and the convenience suddenly becomes less convenient. Unless and untill there is a major boycott of them they hold all the power. Good luck Ira. >>
interesting post considering your comments on the outing of one such fraud.
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