Another paypal scenario..

Trinketts

This has not happened to me yet...

But I have read about this happening before.

An Ebayer wins a coin from you and pays via paypal. You ship the item with insurance and signature confirmation. Two weeks later you get an email from the winner of the auction claiming they got the box but there was nothing inside(which is a complete lie) and they want their money back. Of course you being an honest seller know you did nothing wrong and refuse to refund anything. With-in a week the buyer files a complaint with paypal saying the item was not in the package(aslo the same as "not as described"). Shortly after paypal removes the funds from your account and refunds the buyer.

How can a seller who uses paypal, protect themselves from such a tatic from a dishonest buyer?

Trinketts

What no comments from the peanut gallery?

1985ChicagoBears

Hey, I am waiting to see comments as well.

Your described example concerns me since it could happen. I always believed that PayPal was the best way to go outside of bank checks.

I would also like to see others comments as to whether this could happen.

GAT

I don't know if you can protect yourself if what others say is true. They claim that Paypal pretty much sides with the buyer. On second thought, if it's under $200 and insured, you could claim they failed to notify the USPS.

Paypal requires on items over $200 that you have the signature form that can be checked online. I don't remember the name of that form. The green delivery confirmation is no good on items with a value exceeding $200 to Paypal.

Trinketts

Yes it does seem paypal does side with the buyer quite often.

Russ

PayPal does not "remove the funds from your account and refund the buyer" until an investigation is complete. Part of that investigation is that the seller responds with the necessary proof of delivery, and the buyer must prove the box was empty when they opened it. Since they cannot do that, the funds that were initially frozen would be released back to the seller upon completion of the investigation.

Russ, NCNE

Trinketts

<< <i>PayPal does not "remove the funds from your account and refund the buyer" until an investigation is complete. Part of that investigation is that the seller responds with the necessary proof of delivery, and the buyer must prove the box was empty when they opened it. Since they cannot do that, the funds that were initially frozen would be released back to the seller upon completion of the investigation.

Russ, NCNE >>



Sweet then I can send out empty boxes and paypal will side with me as long as I use signature confirmation!! /End Sarcasm

Russ

<< <i>Sweet then I can send out empty boxes and paypal will side with me as long as I use signature confirmation!! >>



That might work the first time. The second time it happened, they'd go back and re-instate the buyer's claim from the first time.

Russ, NCNE

Trinketts

And there is an 'empty box' provision in the buyer's protection area.



<< <i>The item delivered by the seller is 'significantly not-as-described' in the item listing. An item is 'significantly not-as-described' if the seller clearly misrepresented the details of the item in a way that affects its value or usability. Please note that this does not include cases where you are merely disappointed with the item or where the item did not meet your expectations. Reasons that an item may be considered 'significantly not-as-described' include, but are not limited to, the following:


The item is a completely different item to that which was presented by the seller in the listing, e.g. an audio book instead of a printed book, a desktop computer instead of a laptop, a picture of an item instead of the actual item; or an empty box;
>>



If empty box is not provable then why have it listed under the buyer protections?

Russ

<< <i>If empty box is not provable then why have it listed under the buyer protections? >>



It is provable. But, in your scenario you said that the item was actually shipped. Thus, in your scenario, it is not provable.

Russ, NCNE

Trinketts

<< <i>

<< <i>If empty box is not provable then why have it listed under the buyer protections? >>



It is provable. But, in your scenario you said that the item was actually shipped. Thus, in your scenario, it is not provable.

Russ, NCNE >>




So if a buyer wins an item and is shipped an empty boy with Signature confirmation they have no recourse to get their money back?

Russ

<< <i>So if a buyer wins an item and is shipped an empty boy with Signature confirmation they have no recourse to get their money back? >>



Of course they have recourse. They file a claim and prove the box was empty. Since, again in your scenario, the box was not empty they cannot prove that it was.

Russ, NCNE

robertpr

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>If empty box is not provable then why have it listed under the buyer protections? >>



It is provable. But, in your scenario you said that the item was actually shipped. Thus, in your scenario, it is not provable.

Russ, NCNE >>




So if a buyer wins an item and is shipped an empty boy with Signature confirmation they have no recourse to get their money back? >>



An empty box would in most cases weigh less than a box with contents, thus the weight measured by the USPS for the purposes of determining shipping costs would in fact prove an empty box in most scenarios.

KoinDawg

The weight provided the USPS at time of shipping is reflected in the postage. If you ship Priority, which I always do, the weight of the package is recorded at the time you print your postage/mailing label through PayPal. So the buyer would have a hard time claiming the box was empty if you can prove by weight and shipping that merchandise was in the box. Unless the buyer is one step ahead of you and claims the box had "other junk" in it, I still think PayPal would side with the seller. Why go to all the work of labelling, shipping, signature confirmation if you're not really shipping anything? I suppose some goofball out there might try it once. But PayPal will see a pattern if it's done ever again.

Trinketts

<< <i>

<< <i>So if a buyer wins an item and is shipped an empty boy with Signature confirmation they have no recourse to get their money back? >>



Of course they have recourse. They file a claim and prove the box was empty. Since, again in your scenario, the box was not empty they cannot prove that it was.

Russ, NCNE >>



If I ship a box with Signature confirmation that say has a couple of 3oz weights in it to resemble a slabbed coin weight. And they open the box, how are the supposed to prove they did not get the item?

MadMarty

If the package was opened, the buyer should notify the postman that the package is damaged. The buyer can then file a claim with the USPS for the insurance.

Russ

<< <i>If I ship a box with Signature confirmation that say has a couple of 3oz weights in it to resemble a slabbed coin weight. And they open the box, how are the supposed to prove they did not get the item? >>



As I already said, that might work - once. But, it might not even work once if it's a seller with little or no history. A seller with a lengthy history and no problems would win that one claim. If it happened again, they would likely lose both the second claim and the first.

None of this stuff is cut and dried. PayPal, just like real merchant processing services, looks at each individual case and weighs it against the history of both the seller and the buyer.

Russ, NCNE

KoinDawg

MadMarty, you are wrong. The Buyer (recipient of a package) cannot file an insurance claim. Only the Seller can file the claim. I had a situation where an item never arrived. The jerk seller said, "I'm not responsible for any package once it's shipped if you didn't buy insurance." Well, I had bought insurance and the seller couldn't prove he purchased the insurance I paid for. I still couldn't file the claim. The seller had to. Luckily, I filed a PayPal non-receipt and got all my money back. The seller was unable to file insurance claim because he stupidly thought it wouldn't make a difference if he didn't buy it even when I paid for it.

I generally don't buy insurance on items less than $50. And I allow insurance as a option if my buyers want to buy it. But I would be the one with the receipt number for the insurance claim and I would be the only one that can file the claim, not the recipient/buyer.

joeyuk

KoinDawg that in not correct either. I had purchased a coppercoins original artwork before he started shipping in tubes. When it arrived with a crease I went to the post office to open it and file a claim. They said they would handle the rest. I told Chuck and he just sent me out a new one. The next day my local post office called me down to give me a postal money order refund. I explained it needed to go back to the seller, which it did, and they gave me the creased artwork so I have two.

nankraut

"If I ship a box with Signature confirmation that say has a couple of 3oz weights in it to resemble a slabbed coin weight. And they open the box, how are the supposed to prove they did not get the item? "

In that case, Jesus will punish you when you leave us. Good grief!!! Is everybody presumed to be a crook these days?

In the past 7+yr, I've sold/bought over 6000 lots on EBAY. I've had ONE bad experience, wherein I was defrauded by a buyer. Most folks are honest and trustworthy, I've found.

Trinketts

<< <i>"If I ship a box with Signature confirmation that say has a couple of 3oz weights in it to resemble a slabbed coin weight. And they open the box, how are the supposed to prove they did not get the item? "

In that case, Jesus will punish you when you leave us. Good grief!!! Is everybody presumed to be a crook these days?

In the past 7+yr, I've sold/bought over 6000 lots on EBAY. I've had ONE bad experience, wherein I was defrauded by a buyer. Most folks are honest and trustworthy, I've found. >>



I would like to think so as well... But my one bad experience with a buyer/paypal has made me no longer take paypal on items over $1000...