too much time on my hands!!

hardcorehockeyfan

Alright, I have too much time on my hands this early Saturday morning, and I was wondering who you all think is better. I always hear people say that Johnny Bench is the best catcher of all time, I hear the same thing about Carlton Fisk at times, I also hear that Ivan Rodriguez is a definite HOFer but he is not mentioned as often in the class of the other two, but who do you think is better? I did some numbers for you all, they should be quite accurate also. I have listed them as the best player under each stat, I.E. --more homers per AB is better, and the least Ks per AB is better. I am also sorry if this thread has been hatched before.

GAMES--Fisk (2499), Bench (2158), Rodriguez (1906)
ABs--Rodriguez (7276 or 3.82/game), Bench (7658 or 3.55/game), Fisk (8756 or 3.50/game)
HITS--Rodriguez (2212 or 1.16/game), Bench (2048 or .949/game), Fisk (2356 or .943/game)
2B--Rodriguez (449 or .203/hit), Bench (381 or .186/hit), Fisk (421 or .179/hit)
3B--Fisk (47 or .020/hit), Rodriguez (38 or .017/hit), Bench (24 or .012/hit)
HRs--Bench (389 or .05/AB), Fisk (376 or .042/AB), Rodriguez (266 or .037/AB)
SLG %--Rodriguez (.486), Bench (.476), Fisk (.457)
RBIs--Bench (1376 or .638/game), Rodriguez (1059 or .556/game), Fisk (1330 or .532/game)
AVG--Rodriguez (.304), Fisk (.269), Bench (.267)
WALKS--Bench (891 or .413/game), Fisk (849 or .340/game), Rodriguez (415 or .218/game)
OB%--Rodriguez (.343), Bench (.342), Fisk (.341)
RUNS--Rodriguez (1094 or .574/game), Fisk (1276 or .511/game), Bench (1091 or .506/game)
FIELDING %--Rodriguez (.992), Bench and Fisk (.987)
ERRORS--Rodriguez (115 or .06/game), Fisk (165 or .066/game), Bench (151 or .070/game)
Ks--Rodriguez (1045 or .144/AB), Fisk (1386 or .158/AB), Bench (1278 or .167/AB)
SB--Rodriguez (105 or .055/game), Fisk (128 or .051/game), Bench (68 or .032/game)

Out of 16 categories, Ivan Rodriguez is better in 11 of 16 departments, Johnny Bench in 3 of 16 departments, and Carlton Fisk in 2 of 16 departments. So the question is, based on performance, who do you all think is better? This can start some interesting debate!!

DeutscherGeist

You are comparing numbers accross eras without putting them in context.

Of course I-Rod will have a higher HR to AB ratio and have other hitting numbers better than the other two catchers.

What would be a much more precise comparision is seeing where Fisk and Bench ranked year in and year out in many different categories, including OPS+. Then compare that with that of I-Rod. While I-Rod has or will have bigger numbers, those numbers put in context of his era are really not that spectacular. Compared to Bench and Fisk they are spectacular, sure. But the era that Bench and Fisk played included players that can earn the HR title with 30 or 40 home runs. All numbers were smaller when Fisk played compared to this era of juiced ball and muscle.

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but I know skinpinch knows exactly where I am coming from.

milbroco

I agree with DeutscherGeist. Also, the stat of OB% is virtually a tie at .343, .342, and .341. Fielding % is just about the same also. Its no big deal when the percentages are so close.
Bob

GlynRParson

Id vote it Bench, Rodriguez, Fisk out of those 3. just my personal opinion

helionaut

I like Ivan Rodriguez, best catcher I've seen play close up, but though you rarely hear his name mentioned in such discussions, I have to wonder about Ivan and steroids. Through the 90s and 00s, he got bigger and bulkier, looking distinctly inflated. Last year's All-star game was the first time I got a good look at him last year and he looked distinctly deflated, like someone who had been ill for a long time. Being a teammate of Palmeiro and Gonzalez, about whom there are also whispers but his practical disappearance the last few years kept him out of the glare of scrutiny, you have to wonder what was going on there.

hardcorehockeyfan

Everyone in baseball who has had great numbers over the last decade has to be wondered about, as far as steroids. But is it fair that every player that has put up good numbers, has to be in the steroid discussion, McGwire and Sosa are under fire also, and if not for their '98 seasons, where would baseball be right now? Rafael Palmiero tested positive, and that basically knocks him out of baseball, without any regard, that he has been hitting 25-45 HRs every season previously for close to 15 years. In the case of Ivan Rodriguez, the reason why he dropped so much weight, as he says, was because he had previous problems with his lower back in recent years, and also, he wanted the weight loss to prolong his career and make him quicker, and it is working out for him at this present time, he is still a cat behind the plate, still tosses runners out, hitting fairly well. Last year's numbers were not so great, but I also think he was injured, if not mistaken, think he had a bone fracture in one of his hands from a foul ball, and he did not want to go on the DL. I remember him when he first came up and he was a big boy then, I may be incorrect, I think his first game was against the Tigers, or it was one of his first, I remember George Kell and Al Kaline talking how he was called up, and had to marry his now ex-wife earlier than planned. I am not too old, so Johnny Bench is a little before my time so to speak, Carlton Fisk on my mind, is remembered for probably 10 seasons or so, and I always hated Rodriguez because he always did well against my beloved Tigers. If Rodriguez is not the best, I still say he should be mentioned in the same breath as Bench and Fisk!

Also, it is true that you cannot compare one era to another, so I never want to hear that Gretzky is better than Howe. One would never see Gretzky get a Gordie Howe hat trick!!!!!!