I get screwed more now then when I was 18!
Stooge
Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just received my latest submission results back! I'm really pissed off right now. I bought 4 rolls of 1965 dimes, not SMS dimes but regular old fashion Mint State dime rolls. You know the ones thst DO NOT COME IN THOSE SPECIAL MINTSET HOLDERS! Theses were original bank wrapped rolls. Are you reading me here fellas!?
These were compared to my 1965 (NON SMS) MS66FB Roosie and look the same. Exactly the same! So what happened? I just got screwed!
Not to mention that most of my other grades were alot lower then expected. What really does a person do in this case, just accept the grades as is? Take these coins and get presidential reviews at $20 a crack? here are my grades:
LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY COUNTRY GRADE
1 10256611 1965 10C SMS USA Damage
1 10256612 1965 10C SMS USA MS65
1 10256613 1965 10C SMS USA MS65
2 10256614 1969-S 1C USA PR68DC
3 10256615 1969-S 50C USA PR67DC
4 10256616 1974-S 1C USA PR68DC
5 10256617 1978-S 10C USA PR69DC
6 10256618 1983-P 25C USA MS65
7 10256619 1999 $5 Eagle USA MS68
7 10256620 1999 $5 Eagle USA MS69
8 10256621 1994 $1 Eagle USA MS65
9 10256622 2005-P 50C Satin Finish USA MS68
9 10256623 2005-P 50C Satin Finish USA MS67
10 10256624 2005-P SAC$1 Satin Finish USA MS68
10 10256625 2005-P SAC$1 Satin Finish USA MS68
11 10256626 2006-W $1 Eagle USA PR69DC
Date Received: 03/29/2006
Date Shipped: 04/21/2006
Can someone please help me?
Later, Paul.
These were compared to my 1965 (NON SMS) MS66FB Roosie and look the same. Exactly the same! So what happened? I just got screwed!
Not to mention that most of my other grades were alot lower then expected. What really does a person do in this case, just accept the grades as is? Take these coins and get presidential reviews at $20 a crack? here are my grades:
LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY COUNTRY GRADE
1 10256611 1965 10C SMS USA Damage
1 10256612 1965 10C SMS USA MS65
1 10256613 1965 10C SMS USA MS65
2 10256614 1969-S 1C USA PR68DC
3 10256615 1969-S 50C USA PR67DC
4 10256616 1974-S 1C USA PR68DC
5 10256617 1978-S 10C USA PR69DC
6 10256618 1983-P 25C USA MS65
7 10256619 1999 $5 Eagle USA MS68
7 10256620 1999 $5 Eagle USA MS69
8 10256621 1994 $1 Eagle USA MS65
9 10256622 2005-P 50C Satin Finish USA MS68
9 10256623 2005-P 50C Satin Finish USA MS67
10 10256624 2005-P SAC$1 Satin Finish USA MS68
10 10256625 2005-P SAC$1 Satin Finish USA MS68
11 10256626 2006-W $1 Eagle USA PR69DC
Date Received: 03/29/2006
Date Shipped: 04/21/2006
Can someone please help me?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
1
Comments
David
I have to agree with David. It takes a while, but you just have to try and put it behind you. I took a few beatings and haven't submitted coins in over a year (even let my membership lapse). However, I think my wounds are fully healed and I'm thinking about going back for another beating!!
Jack
Wondercoin
General question: Are there any diagnostics which can conclusively distinguish SMS from non-SMS coins? If there are, I wonder if the grading services know them. I had a 1965 SMS Kennedy from a BU roll that got the dreaded "SMS" tag at NGC, but did not when I submitted it to PCGS.
A position, if I am not mistaken, initially adopted by Rick M. after paying off a few SMS mechanical errors and one I totally agree with.
It is has also been conclusively determined in the past, again, if I am not mistaken, that SMS coins have been known to be found in fresh rolls of 1965-67 coinage.
Wondercoin
Been there many times, and I even have one at PCGS now that I expect FB on, so you KNOW I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
The one I sent is another 67, but we all have the same problem with 65 - 66 - 67's.
I remember Nick complaining about the same problem.
And if Nick has trouble with these years, then that means the playing field is level, and we can all expect to be screwed equally.
As for being 18, I don't expect you will enjoy it as much as you did then.
An edit to add:
Maybe we could get some forum member who has a membership with NGC to let us pay them to submit them.
Then we could try to cross them, may lose a grade, but would have a chance to beat the curse that way.
<< <i>Stooge my condolences on the grades. Quick question: Did you make sure you used the business strike PCGS coin number for the 65 Roosies?
General question: Are there any diagnostics which can conclusively distinguish SMS from non-SMS coins? If there are, I wonder if the grading services know them. I had a 1965 SMS Kennedy from a BU roll that got the dreaded "SMS" tag at NGC, but did not when I submitted it to PCGS. >>
Thanks for all the kind words! I have had time to think things over and get some sleep. I'm not mad anymore and I have 2 other submissions I'm waiting on. It actually has been quite a while since I have sent anything in to PCGS. I could take some time off from sending any more "Crap" in to get graded, but I just started up again. I want to generate some revenue, but I suppose I will have to pay someone to take these paperweights off of my hands!
The 1994 $1.00 Silver eagle I expceted a lower grade. I sent that one in because of its incredible toning.
Thanks again Guys, I actually feel better.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I'm familiar with this scenario. I don't even submit nice business strike 1965 to 1967 Kennedys anymore. If the coin is high grade it gets stuck in an SMS holder whether it is or not.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ, Are there any diagnostics that separate the SMS vs. BS? There has to be some way to tell the difference!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>Svae me some time. What's the difference in values of these in the 2 grades you got for SMS & bus. strikes? >>
Lets just say they are both 67, as prices are poor for 65's.
A 1965 PCGS S.M.S. in a MS67 will bring maybe $15-$20
A 1965 PCGS MS67 will bring $40-$50, before FB I sold one for $260!
A 1965 PCGS MS67FB will bring about $150-$200 depending on the bidder.
Someone can correct me, but these are my best guestimates!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>A 1965 PCGS MS67FB will bring about $150-$200 depending on the bidder. >>
WOW.. I would think a 1965 MS67FB at pop 2/0 Will bring at least $500.00 to $1000.00.
With $750.00 being an average, but like Paul said, depending on who is bidding or buying.
Needless to say this would have to be a true FB and nice for the grade.
I made and sold one of the 2 that have been graded. Since it was sold to a board member I will not reveal
the selling price. Lets just say I'll gladly pay $1000 for one.
I think Paul ment 66FB. I believe I was getting more then $200 for a 66FB too.
These are the only year coins that it may be better to have a little die polishing/grinding, than to have nice smooth fields. Its a shame that it comes to this, but in my case it seemed to help fight the SMS curse.
I had said I would not send any more in, but like Paul I faltered and have another in the works.
FB/no/FB SMS/MS? I'll let you know when I know. FB/ will go into my set, 68/no band, my set, SMS/ in the drawer with all the other ones that were cursed.
This had most of the state of Michigan laughing for 2 days
and a very embarrassed female news anchor who will,
in the future, likely think before she speaks.
What happens when you predict snow but don't get any!
We had a female news anchor that,
the day after it was supposed to have snowed and didn't,
turned to the weatherman and asked:
"So Bob, where's that 8 inches you promised me last night?"
Not only did HE have to leave the set,
but half the crew did too they were laughing so hard!
**********************************
Wondercoin
compare some business strikes with some proofs
usually there is a rounding rather than square edges on business
check the reeding
compare some business strikes with some proofs
there are rounded edges rather than square edges on business
SMS are alot more like proof than business
I have heard that many SMS sets were broken apart because the half was worth alot when silver jumped with the Hunt's - the other coins were spent or put into rolls
Wondercoin
<< <i>"A 1965 PCGS MS67FB will bring about $150-$200 depending on the bidder."
I made and sold one of the 2 that have been graded. Since it was sold to a board member I will not reveal
the selling price. Lets just say I'll gladly pay $1000 for one.
I think Paul ment 66FB. I believe I was getting more then $200 for a 66FB too. >>
Yes I was incorrect on this and very happy to have Dan50 and Onlyroosies watching out for me!
Yes a 1965 MS66FB would bring around $200 while a MS67FB would bring $1,000 on a bad day. I was giving my cat a treat and must have sniffed the Catnip!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>I met with Rick Montgomery a few years back and we compared thoughts and methods on detecting 1965-67 SMS vs. non-SMS coins. Coins in hand, he showed me his methodology on determining the SMS coins and I showed him mine. One thing for sure that came out of that meeting - there are NO diagnostics to determine 1965-67 SMS from non-SMS coins. It is all about the surface texture of the coins and seeing enough coins over time to feel comfortable about your convictions on the manufacture of the coins.
Wondercoin >>
Thanks, that was helpful.
<< <i>Connecticoin >>
To cut through the BS, no there is no 100% way to tell. It comes down to a judgement call from the grader.
And its a fact you can crack it out and resend, and have a chance another grader will see it your way. It's been done more that a few times. After those SMS dies get some wear, polishing, grinding, no one call tell one from another. NO ONE. And if they say they can, thats where the BS comes in.
The flipside is with a fairly fresh die you can see that one may not look SMS, but is a little to nice to be business strike.
Look through enough rolls from said years and you will run up on one sooner or later.
<< <i>is has also been conclusively determined in the past, again, if I am not mistaken, that SMS coins have been known to be found in fresh rolls of 1965-67 coinage.
>>
I don't know if it is so much that as the way the dies were prepared. I have seen more 1968 early die state coins than just about anyone. The first strike coins from 68, first non SMS year, would be graded SMS everytime, even getting cameo designation, if they were in 1967 or any other SMS year. EDS coins from those dates, even true circ strikes, look SMS. If you want circ coins not to be graded as SMS avoid EDS coins, its that simple.
LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY COUNTRY GRADE
1 10105473 1965 1C USA MS66RD
1 10105474 1965 1C USA MS66RD
1 10105475 1965 1C USA MS65RD
1 10105476 1965 1C USA MS66RD
1 10105477 1965 1C USA MS66RD
2 10105478 1975-D 1C USA MS67RD
2 10105487 1975-D 1C USA MS65RD
2 10105479 1975-D 1C USA MS66RD
2 10105480 1975-D 1C USA MS65RD
2 10105481 1975-D 1C USA MS66RD
2 10105482 1975-D 1C USA MS66RD
2 10105483 1975-D 1C USA MS66RD
2 10105484 1975-D 1C USA MS66RD
2 10105485 1975-D 1C USA MS66RD
2 10105486 1975-D 1C USA MS65RD
3 10105488 1980-D 1C USA MS66RD
4 10105489 1981 1C USA MS66RD
5 10105490 1981-D 1C USA MS65RD
5 10105491 1981-D 1C USA MS66RD
5 10105492 1981-D 1C USA MS66RD
5 10105493 1981-D 1C USA MS65RD
6 10105494 1980-P 5C USA MS65FS
6 10105495 1980-P 5C USA MS64
6 10105496 1980-P 5C USA MS64FS
7 10105497 1978 5C USA MS65
7 10105498 1978 5C USA MS65
8 10105499 1971-D 25C USA MS66
9 10105500 1979-D 25C USA MS65
10 10105501 1980-D 25C USA MS66
11 10105502 1981-D 25C USA MS66
11 10105503 1981-D 25C USA MS65
11 10105504 1981-D 25C USA MS65
11 10105505 1981-D 25C USA MS66
12 10105506 1982-P 25C USA MS65
13 10105507 1982-D 25C USA MS65
14 10105508 1987-D 25C USA MS65
14 10105509 1987-D 25C USA MS65
15 10105510 1993-D 25C USA MS66
15 10105511 1993-D 25C USA MS65
15 10105512 1993-D 25C USA MS65
Wheres the dimes?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Compared to the grades you have posted lately, those do look poor.
I agree- tie up DH's time and make him look and write notes to you on a string of $5 coins.
Wondercoin
<< <i>It is has also been conclusively determined in the past, again, if I am not mistaken, that SMS coins have been known to be found in fresh rolls of 1965-67 coinage. >>
SMS coins have been purported to have been found in fresh rolls of 1965 - 67 coinage. Maybe only because PCGS and the person finding it can not tell the difference. I opened an original roll of 1966 Kennedys this past fall with my son, the roll was bought back in 66 and has been in a safety deposit box ever since. In this roll we found on coin that should grade MS67, it sits in a flip right now and we are thinking about sending it in to PCGS. It has been suggested by a few friends that work in the Secert Service that if PCGS body bags it in a holder marked SMS, to submit it to the Treasury Department for verification if it is a SMS or not. I never realized that the Treasury (Mint) would authenticate the status of a US coin as being proof, uncirculated or SMS. Wonder how PCGS would respond if they say SMS but Treasury says circulation strike, where would the creditability be?
Tim
Tim: It is impressive enough that you have a few friends that work in the SS. But, to have a few friends that not only work there, but know how to get coins verified by the Treasury Dept once the grading services take a stand - those are "well rounded" govt. employees!!
Wondercoin
<< <i>Tim: It is impressive enough that you have a few friends that work in the SS. But, to have a few friends that not only work there, but know how to get coins verified by the Treasury Dept once the grading services take a stand - those are "well rounded" govt. employees!! >>
Over the past twenty-five years, I have worked cases with them, competed against them, visited and competed at their training facility in Beltsville, MD (talk about some nice shooting ranges), made some professional relationships plus personal friendships. The men and women of the USSS are outstanding, and the professional courtesy is un-matched by any other agency that I've dealt with. Just for an example, when ever I visit the D.C. area, I will make one or two telephone calls before I arrive and then will have a guide for my stay in the area (I realize it is on their days off, but you can't ask for a better pass to getting into places or the knowledge of what is going on especially if you are from the back woods of Maine). I've been told, and I have no reason to doubt it, that they can have a coin evaluated for it authenticity and manor of strike (they will not give it a grade value). Qustion would be if PCGS would honor or give any weight to their findings?
Edit to add:
I think I read somewhere that ten 1933 St. Gaudens were sent in and evaluated for their authenticity recently; but after they determined that they were real, they kept them
Guess that is what happens when a lawyer sends some coins in
<< <i> "I think I have to send some of these for presidential review"
I agree- tie up DH's time and make him look and write notes to you on a string of $5 coins. >>
This time I know some of these coins are undergraded, and not my own wishful thinking or owner's bias. I knew the 20 Lincolns returned to me from a bulk as ms65 or lower were undergraded. And I was right, all 20 upgraded, 4 to ms67 even. At least I didn't have to pay grading fees the first time. This time I paid $14 a coin. I don't care if it's worth 5 cents. I want my coins graded correctly.
<< <i>
<< <i> "I think I have to send some of these for presidential review"
I agree- tie up DH's time and make him look and write notes to you on a string of $5 coins. >>
This time I know some of these coins are undergraded, and not my own wishful thinking or owner's bias. I knew the 20 Lincolns returned to me from a bulk as ms65 or lower were undergraded. And I was right, all 20 upgraded, 4 to ms67 even. At least I didn't have to pay grading fees the first time. This time I paid $14 a coin. I don't care if it's worth 5 cents. I want my coins graded correctly. >>
You had 4 coins jump 2 grades?
<< I met with Rick Montgomery a few years back and we compared thoughts and methods on detecting 1965-67 SMS vs. non-SMS coins. Coins in hand, he showed me his methodology on determining the SMS coins and I showed him mine. One thing for sure that came out of that meeting - there are NO diagnostics to determine 1965-67 SMS from non-SMS coins. It is all about the surface texture of the coins and seeing enough coins over time to feel comfortable about your convictions on the manufacture of the coins.
<< <i>Thanks, that was helpful.
My Washington Type B/C Set
I feel your pain, I just got by grade for a 1965 Kennedy half that I removed from a BU roll. The coin had nice luster and came back SMS67. A whole back I had another coin that I thought was undergraded that I broke out of a MS65 holder and it came back SMS66. Waste of time unless you have a variety that you can prove only exists on BS. I will NEVER bother sending in another 65-67 BS again. Total waste of time.
It happens. I had a Merc jump from an MS66FB to a MS68, don't ask me what happened to the band designation as they were plump full bands. I traded it to a guy at the local Parsippany coin show for a barber I needed for my typeset at the time.
Last fall I submitted a number of SMS dimes for grading. I made an 1965 SMS Dime that graded SP68; and I made a 1967 SMS Dime that graded SP67CAM.
I also submitted a 1968 S Proof Dime that graded PF69DCAM.
I am very happy with all three dimes.