Experts: Do proof High Relief Saint $20's really exist, or they are just because certain grading com

ER

If I'm correct, PCGS says no, and NGC says yes. What say you?

Edited, thanks to coinguy1.

Edited #2: Stupid CU server.

coinguy1

ER, PCGS has certified a good number of Proof Saint's - did you mean to say Proof High Relief's? If so, my answer is yes. However, I believe that the same dies were used to strike both business strikes and Proof's (edited to add: and even the business strikes received multiple strikes), and it's sometimes difficult to tell when one run started and the other began.

ER

<< <i>ER, PCGS has certified a good number of Proof Saint's - did you mean to say Proof High Relief's? >>



Yes, sorry.

CoinRaritiesOnline

The High Reliefs NGC grades as "proofs" have a distinctive look (i.e. lots of die polish) but, in my opinion, they were not struck as proofs. I would not pay a premium for such a coin, though the marketplace does value them higher than what both services agree are "business strikes".

morgannut2

Well are there any 100% positive proofs that were saved? Say in the National Collection, and if so, did they have a lot of die polish showing as NGC says they do?

DaveG

Here's what Dave Bowers says in the Double Eagle Redbook (quoting David Akers):

There were no Proofs officially struck for collectors, but a small number of pieces do exist that are undoubtedly Proofs based on the fact that they were struck with the lettered edge collar used on the Extremely High Relief. They are also characterized by an unusually satiny surface and a myriad of raised die scratches and swirls in the fields. There are other Proofs with different size edge letters and unusual finishes, including one of the Gilhousen coins and the 'matte Proof' DiBello-Auction '81 specimen.

coinguy1

<< <i> They are also characterized by an unusually satiny surface and a myriad of raised die scratches and swirls in the fields >>

Whether one chooses to believe that Proofs were produced or not, based upon personal experience, I can state that the aforementioned diagnostics/characteristics are fairly easily apparent and recognizable once you have seen them a few times.

MrEureka

I don't think you can know if these coins are proofs without knowing what the coiner was thinking when he made the coins. Regardless, the so-called proofs are at the least very cool-looking first strikes and are IMHO definitely worth a premium.

RWB

All of the high relief $20s were struck on medal presses, with each coin receiving 3 blows from the press and annealed between blows. There is no record of any special pieces being made – they were all considered special. Thus, all high relief $20s could be considered "proofs" or not, whichever pleases the owner. No one really knows the extent of edge lettering varieties or how they link to various production batches of HR coins. Sundry swirls and polishing lines are just that – and completely normal, not an indicator of a “proof” specimen.

The EHR $20 were made in three batches. All were struck 7 times and annealed between blows. This resulted in medal-coins that had a thin film of nearly pure gold on the surface, so they look different in color and texture than other .900 fine gold coins. Traditionally, they are all called "proofs" although mint documents never use the term in relation to these experimental pieces.

elassoto

All of the High Relief $20 Saints with MCMVII have the lettered edge on them of E PLURIBUS UNUM. It looks like there are some very rare examples of a high relief without letters on the edge and with the letters separated by stars that have sold at Stacks. I'm surprised that the auction houses don't show photo's of the collars. They are a nice part of the coin. You may have to see the coins in person side by side to tell the difference between a Proof and a regular.

Stack's March 2005 Auction High Reliefs

Julian

I do feel that there are proofs, but agree with Mark in that the dies may have been used subsequently.

Roger has done a lot of research and if he found that they were not intentionally struck as proofs, then perhaps we have to fall back on Andy's thoughts that they may have been early strikes.

RWB

Regarding plain edge high relief MCMVII $20s, Vicken Yegparian at Stack's was able to die link a specimen in one of their recent sales to others with normal edge lettering. Further the coins showed multiple cracks and signs of wear consistent with considerable use. Thus, it is most likely that plain edge HR $20s are production errors – very interesting ones – but just errors not deliberate trial or experimental pieces. (Of the 3 blows given each HR coin, only the final one was made with the lettered edge collar.)

There are also reports of HR pieces with different edge collars than commonly seen, and of low relief pieces from unusual collars. Until more of the pieces can be carefully examined outside of edge-obscuring tombstones, conjecture is the rule.

As with any series, the first pieces from new dies would probably be superior in detail to later pieces. The telltale signs of an early strike would be the absence of metal flow lines and a similarity to deliberate satin proofs made in 1909-1910 (also struck on medal presses but given only one blow).

The real undiscovered treasure would be the VHR experimental pieces. Identical design to the HR, but with more detail and about the thickness of the EHR $20s (from the 2nd and 3rd groups). These could be hiding in someone’s collection.

(For those who what to know the details and sources, pick up a copy of "Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908.")

Coinosaurus

It would be really cool if the mint restruck the UHRs. They would sell like hotcakes.

robertpr

<< <i>

<< <i> They are also characterized by an unusually satiny surface and a myriad of raised die scratches and swirls in the fields >>

Whether one chooses to believe that Proofs were produced or not, based upon personal experience, I can state that the aforementioned diagnostics/characteristics are fairly easily apparent and recognizable once you have seen them a few times. >>



Does the different collar used to strike the coins in question not differentiate them enough from the business strikes to indicate they were specially struck for presentation?

RWB

“Does the different collar used to strike the coins in question not differentiate them enough from the business strikes to indicate they were specially struck for presentation?”

So far as can be objectively determined, all of the high relief $20s were struck using the same edge collar design, and all were produced the same way. Since there were multiple sets of dies (obverse, reverse and edge) used there will be minor differences just as with any other series. At present we don’t know if there are differences in edge dies between the first 500 pieces struck Aug/Sept 1907 and the remaining approx 12,000 made from Nov 23 onward. As more coins are put in holders that allow the edge to be examined, maybe we will learn more. Also, the reported variations in edge design have not been carefully examined and compared – this would be an excellent project for someone with the time and resources to do it.

As far as the concept of “presentation” goes, President Roosevelt passed out HR $20s almost as if they were penny candy. However, the only suggestion of something needed for presentation was in early December when TR requested 20 specimens to be carefully selected for quality and packaged in individual envelopes. (Note – not struck, only selected….) We don’t know anything more about these. (My personal speculation is that TR wanted to give one to each of the Atlantic Fleet commanding officers before they left Norfolk, VA. But my speculation is not supported by anything in naval archives or, as far as I could determine, in the personal archives of the Captains and Admirals.)

On the more general concept of “proof.” One should examine the standard definition of “proof coin” then see if it applies to a particular specimen. There are some specimens that are as much marketing hype and wishful thinking, as purpose-made proofs. (Compare all the 1913 Liberty nickels, or the 1894-S dimes some of which have been called “proof” from time to time.) The MCMVII $20s are not alone in having some folks call nice looking pieces “proofs,” when there is no evidence they were produced in any special way. A good example is the 1916 pattern quarter with parts of the obverse olive leaves scratched off. This specimen has been called a “proof” for many years, yet mint documents clearly state that it was struck just like any circulating piece. (The logic behind calling the piece a “proof” appears to be: a) “It’s a pattern; b) “It’s well struck and detailed;” c) “It must be a proof.” This was, however, before the documentation was published.)

In researching the origins and initial production of the Saint-Gaudens coins, I came across an enormous range of quality for the HR $20s. There were specimens that were clearly superior to ordinary pieces in detail and surface, and there were pieces that showed obvious triple outlines from multiple strikes and had ugly fins on parts of both sides. Edge lettering went from absent, to strong; sometimes tilted or blurred. The range of quality was far beyond what is normally found among production coins – as would be expected with coins requiring so much hand work. Yet, within this there were no pieces that were sandblasted (as on the 1906 $20 patterns) or had nearly pure gold surfaces (as on the EHR $20s from all three groups) – nothing clearly distinctive.

OK—that’s enough long-winded discourse. Read the book, then form you own opinion.

elassoto

Here is a photo I snapped of the High Relief MCMVII $20 . Sorry it's kind of blurry. Orientation of the letters is important too. In this case having the reverse up, causes the letters to be right side up. I haven't seen anywhere what the orientation of the lettering is normally. It would be nice to see the lettering on other coin edges as well. It's an important and beautiful part of the coin.

RWB

The normal orientation is for the motto to be upside down if the viewer is facing the obverse. The motto then arches over the figure of Liberty and by tilting the coin slightly, can be read as an extension of the obverse. This was Saint-Gaudens’ improvement on Charles Barber’s original edge design that had a star between each letter (13 stars and 13 letters). (Barber’s version dates from at least 1885 when it was used on experimental silver dollars.)

This lettering style and orientation is on the original plaster models of the VHR $20, from which the HR $20 hubs were made.