Who is/was INS grading company??

coinbuf

I was at a local show and looking at a case of any older gentleman seller. He had an older photograde slab and the insert said it was graded by INS. I'd never seen or heard of this TPG; has anyone else? Perhaps conder101 or someone that has his book can shead some light on the subject.

Chris

Julian

INS was run by Charles Hoskins and Skip Fazzari. They had the original ANACS in Washington, DC and after ANA moved it to CO, I believe they started this in Phila. Skip may not have gone with Charles. I just cannot remember.

Skip is now part of the NGC team and an excellent numismatist.

coinbuf

Thanks Julian. I thought the coin was quite nice and graded correctly but had no idea as to who thay were, only that it had to have been graded long ago.

Chris

Conder101

I'm not sure who started INS, full name International Numismatic Society Authentication Bureau, (Begun in 1975) but it wasn't Hoskins. Charles Hoskins was the Director of ANACS beginning in 1972 and he remained in that position until after a burglary over a weekend at ANACS in Sept of 1976. Oddly, nothing was "taken" during the burglary, but the ANACS's extensive files of diagnostices for genuine key date coins was copied! And it had been an inside job as there was no forced entry. Shortly after the burglary Hoskins resigned at ANACS and became President of INS.

INS originally dealt mainly with non-US coins. US material did not begin to dominate at INS until sometime in 1977. They were located at that time in Washington DC and their first two certificates were little more than a sealed pouch with polaroid photos of both sides of the coin with a serial number, and a card with the serial number and a description of the coin. The first type used a 3X5 sized card, on the second the certificate was now an 8 1/2 X 11 sheet with the description and a detailed 43 line checklist. These two certificates were used until 1987 at which point they began using photoslabs, licensing the shells from ACG. There are two varieties using these shells from the Washington DC office.

In 1992, INS moved to Philadelphia PA and they issued one variety of photoslab still using the ACG licensed shells.

Around 1997 INS moved again, this time to Aston PA and released one variety of holder still with the ACG type photoslab. This slab is apparently very rare. To date I have only seen one specimen and it may no longer exist. (The slab held an 1849 proof half cent. A coin vertually unsalable today unless it is in one of the major services slabs. So chances are very good that the coin has by now been cracked out and reslabbed elsewhere.)

Julian

Given Conder's thoughts, you might add Bob Paul from Phila to the mix. He had something to do with it, especially the holder, and was most recently involved with the waffle coins.

AndyNC2005

If I'm not mistaken, they're still listed on the Blusheet. Why?

Conder101

The Bluesheet people say it is because they still show up in auctions from time to time. This is a BS reason since they almost never show up and there are other old services that are not listed which show up much more frequently. It's been some time since I've seen a bluesheet. Anyone have the list of the companies they have pecentage comparisons on?

Married2Coins

I can add to this dead discussion (long before I was a CU member) when I find some notes. I dropped off submissions at ANACS and INS when they were in DC And even attended one INS coin convention in DC one (?) year. I forgot all about that.

coinbuf

Wow a blast from the past, The information that was shared in this thread is exactly what I was alluding to in my reply to your question why do we participate on this forum. Looking forward to any information that you might have to add. Just for fun here is my one example of this old holder. I would expect this to grade lower today.

Married2Coins

Much of what I was going to add was mentioned today in this thread on page 12 0r 13: "Rare plastic for the weekend - any service, samples - what have you got????" I need to read it some more. It has slabs from that company done long after it left DC. I thought they went out of business in '86 when PCGS started. The archives of CU is amazing.

CaptHenway

@Conder101 said:
I'm not sure who started INS, full name International Numismatic Society Authentication Bureau, (Begun in 1975) but it wasn't Hoskins. Charles Hoskins was the Director of ANACS beginning in 1972 and he remained in that position until after a burglary over a weekend at ANACS in Sept of 1976. Oddly, nothing was "taken" during the burglary, but the ANACS's extensive files of diagnostices for genuine key date coins was copied! And it had been an inside job as there was no forced entry. Shortly after the burglary Hoskins resigned at ANACS and became President of INS.

A small correction. All three of the Authenticators at ANACS in DC were let go at the August, 1976 ANA Convention in NYC, but it was very quickly realized that letting John Hunter go was a mistake and he was almost immediately rehired to reestablish ANACS in Colorado Springs. Before this could take place somebody entered the premises and photocopied the authentication diagnostic files.

Ed Fleischmann was hired away from Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse department and he relocated directly to Colorado Springs to join Hunter. They were up and running some time in October.

TD

oldabeintx

Has anyone written a book or paper specifically about the history of coin grading, including the evolution and history of the various services? Seems to be an area of interest these days.

coinbuf

@oldabeintx said:
Has anyone written a book or paper specifically about the history of coin grading, including the evolution and history of the various services? Seems to be an area of interest these days.

Conder101, no longer a member here (at least under that name), wrote a book that details many of the TPG slabs and the variations of each. However, his book has been out of print for decades and is harder to find than hens teeth.

BStrauss3

Found the thread where I posted the pics, although it's not here...

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ins-thought-we-could-discuss-this-one.395932/page-3

CRHer700

@coinbuf said:

@oldabeintx said:
Has anyone written a book or paper specifically about the history of coin grading, including the evolution and history of the various services? Seems to be an area of interest these days.

Conder101, no longer a member here (at least under that name), wrote a book that details many of the TPG slabs and the variations of each. However, his book has been out of print for decades and is harder to find than hens teeth.

He is still a member over on Cointalk. I could ask him to return here and share some insight if you would like.

OldeTowneCoinShoppe

@coinbuf said:

@oldabeintx said:
Has anyone written a book or paper specifically about the history of coin grading, including the evolution and history of the various services? Seems to be an area of interest these days.

Conder101, no longer a member here (at least under that name), wrote a book that details many of the TPG slabs and the variations of each. However, his book has been out of print for decades and is harder to find than hens teeth.

Here's a fairly recent post by Conder101 if you want to follow up with him:
https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/418332-omega-counterfeit-10-indian

coinbuf

@OldeTowneCoinShoppe said:
Here's a fairly recent post by Conder101 if you want to follow up with him:
https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/418332-omega-counterfeit-10-indian

Thanks James, I know he posts on the NGC forum on occasion.

@CRHer700 said:
He is still a member over on Cointalk. I could ask him to return here and share some insight if you would like.

Thanks but I can easily reach out to him on the NGC forum. Unfortunately he never produced any updates to his first book (released in 2003 I think) and I seem to recall that all his research was lost due to a computer crash or something like that.

PerryHall

@CRHer700 said:

@coinbuf said:

@oldabeintx said:
Has anyone written a book or paper specifically about the history of coin grading, including the evolution and history of the various services? Seems to be an area of interest these days.

Conder101, no longer a member here (at least under that name), wrote a book that details many of the TPG slabs and the variations of each. However, his book has been out of print for decades and is harder to find than hens teeth.

He is still a member over on Cointalk. I could ask him to return here and share some insight if you would like.

He was unfortunately banned from here.

CRHer700

@PerryHall said:

@CRHer700 said:

@coinbuf said:

@oldabeintx said:
Has anyone written a book or paper specifically about the history of coin grading, including the evolution and history of the various services? Seems to be an area of interest these days.

Conder101, no longer a member here (at least under that name), wrote a book that details many of the TPG slabs and the variations of each. However, his book has been out of print for decades and is harder to find than hens teeth.

He is still a member over on Cointalk. I could ask him to return here and share some insight if you would like.

He was unfortunately banned from here.

Some people who are banned still return.

oldabeintx

The history of the services, the players, and a general review of the grading process as it has evolved would be of interest as well as the various slab iterations. I’ve seen Conder’s posts on the NGC forum and they are appreciated, but they appear to focus on slab generations. Does his book include a broader scope?

CaptHenway

Any book has to be about CERTIFICATION, both AUTHENTIFICATION (which came first) and GRADING. If you are going to do it, you need to interview Skip Fazzari, John Hunter (if you can find him) and me before we get any older.

lermish

@CRHer700 said:

@PerryHall said:

@CRHer700 said:

@coinbuf said:

@oldabeintx said:
Has anyone written a book or paper specifically about the history of coin grading, including the evolution and history of the various services? Seems to be an area of interest these days.

Conder101, no longer a member here (at least under that name), wrote a book that details many of the TPG slabs and the variations of each. However, his book has been out of print for decades and is harder to find than hens teeth.

He is still a member over on Cointalk. I could ask him to return here and share some insight if you would like.

He was unfortunately banned from here.

Some Many people who are banned still return, sometimes many times.

Fixed that for you.

CRHer700

@lermish said:

@CRHer700 said:

@PerryHall said:

@CRHer700 said:

@coinbuf said:

@oldabeintx said:
Has anyone written a book or paper specifically about the history of coin grading, including the evolution and history of the various services? Seems to be an area of interest these days.

Conder101, no longer a member here (at least under that name), wrote a book that details many of the TPG slabs and the variations of each. However, his book has been out of print for decades and is harder to find than hens teeth.

He is still a member over on Cointalk. I could ask him to return here and share some insight if you would like.

He was unfortunately banned from here.

Some Many people who are banned still return, sometimes many times.

Fixed that for you.

I guess you did.

privatecoin

@lermish said:

@CRHer700 said:

@PerryHall said:

@CRHer700 said:

@coinbuf said:

@oldabeintx said:
Has anyone written a book or paper specifically about the history of coin grading, including the evolution and history of the various services? Seems to be an area of interest these days.

Conder101, no longer a member here (at least under that name), wrote a book that details many of the TPG slabs and the variations of each. However, his book has been out of print for decades and is harder to find than hens teeth.

He is still a member over on Cointalk. I could ask him to return here and share some insight if you would like.

He was unfortunately banned from here.

Some Many people who are banned still return, sometimes many times.

Fixed that for you.

Waiting for Insider 4.

bakeandshake

@coinbuf said:

@oldabeintx said:
Has anyone written a book or paper specifically about the history of coin grading, including the evolution and history of the various services? Seems to be an area of interest these days.

Conder101, no longer a member here (at least under that name), wrote a book that details many of the TPG slabs and the variations of each. However, his book has been out of print for decades and is harder to find than hens teeth.

my wife’s father has one of these, I’m gonna tell him to bring it over for thanksgiving and then over feed and serve him till he leaves back home without it, completely forgetting it ever existed, come the following morning. I will report back

CRHer700

@privatecoin said:

@lermish said:

@CRHer700 said:

@PerryHall said:

@CRHer700 said:

@coinbuf said:

@oldabeintx said:
Has anyone written a book or paper specifically about the history of coin grading, including the evolution and history of the various services? Seems to be an area of interest these days.

Conder101, no longer a member here (at least under that name), wrote a book that details many of the TPG slabs and the variations of each. However, his book has been out of print for decades and is harder to find than hens teeth.

He is still a member over on Cointalk. I could ask him to return here and share some insight if you would like.

He was unfortunately banned from here.

Some Many people who are banned still return, sometimes many times.

Fixed that for you.

Waiting for Insider 4.

Yes I did think of that.

BStrauss3

@bakeandshake said:
my wife’s father has one of these, I’m gonna tell him to bring it over for thanksgiving and then over feed and serve him till he leaves back home without it, completely forgetting it ever existed, come the following morning. I will report back

It is possible to -carefully- open the comb binding and then pass each page through a high-end copier/scanner then -carefully- rebind it to create a .pdf version.

DO NOT ASK ME HOW I KNOW THIS!

ernie11

I knew that INS rang an old but familiar bell, and I just found what I was looking for. When I purchased a 1921-D Walking Liberty half from a dealer back in 1982, it came with this photo certification. No grading, no slab.

Azurescens

I try to buy any gold that I find in these things. It's almost always free money and does well at grading services.

Married2Coins

@CaptHenway said:

@Conder101 said:
I'm not sure who started INS, full name International Numismatic Society Authentication Bureau, (Begun in 1975) but it wasn't Hoskins. Charles Hoskins was the Director of ANACS beginning in 1972 and he remained in that position until after a burglary over a weekend at ANACS in Sept of 1976. Oddly, nothing was "taken" during the burglary, but the ANACS's extensive files of diagnostices for genuine key date coins was copied! And it had been an inside job as there was no forced entry. Shortly after the burglary Hoskins resigned at ANACS and became President of INS.

A small correction. All three of the Authenticators at ANACS in DC were let go at the August, 1976 ANA Convention in NYC, but it was very quickly realized that letting John Hunter go was a mistake and he was almost immediately rehired to reestablish ANACS in Colorado Springs. Before this could take place somebody entered the premises and photocopied the authentication diagnostic files.

Ed Fleischmann was hired away from Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse department and he relocated directly to Colorado Springs to join Hunter. They were up and running some time in October.

TD

I was going to let this go but what the heck. What appears above is the ANA's version - close but no cigar.
AFAIK, there are only three people alive who know the actual events. I'm one of them because I was with Ken Bressett when Mike Fazzari told the story of that fantasy "break in" at ANACS and why there is no mention of him in the ANA's Centennial History. It is a fascinating story riddled by ANA politics. Mike knows the "how," the "where," and the "why;" but the person/persons behind the "who" will never be known. I PM'ed him last week about the INS discussions here.

CaptHenway

I realize that every story has multiple versions, and that only sometimes is even one of them true, but my version of the story did not come from the ANA (even though I did go on staff there in November of 1978).

In 1976 I was on staff at Coin World, which naturally took great interest in the story of what was happening at ANACS. As to the decision to relocate ANACS to Colorado Springs, that was discussed at open Board meetings during the convention, in August, which were covered personally by our Editor, Margo Russell. It was discussed again during the Press Buffet held early Sunday afternoon on the terrace level of the then-Americana Hotel, overlooking Broadway, which I attended with the rest of the Coin World staffers.

As to the (alleged, if you prefer) copying of files, that was discussed at great length back in the Editorial Offices at a later date, after the story was reported to us. I do not recall who our sources were.

The files themselves were not transferred to Colorado Springs until at least October, as noted in a story about Ed Fleischmann in the November, 1976 The Numismatist. The three log books used in the DC office to record the receipt and return of coins show entries into October.

coinbuf

@ernie11 said:
I knew that INS rang an old but familiar bell, and I just found what I was looking for. When I purchased a 1921-D Walking Liberty half from a dealer back in 1982, it came with this photo certification. No grading, no slab.

Thanks for posting this, I do not recall seeing this style for INS before.

Married2Coins

@CaptHenway said:
I realize that every story has multiple versions, and that only sometimes is even one of them true, but my version of the story did not come from the ANA (even though I did go on staff there in November of 1978).

In 1976 I was on staff at Coin World, which naturally took great interest in the story of what was happening at ANACS. As to the decision to relocate ANACS to Colorado Springs, that was discussed at open Board meetings during the convention, in August, which were covered personally by our Editor, Margo Russell. It was discussed again during the Press Buffet held early Sunday afternoon on the terrace level of the then-Americana Hotel, overlooking Broadway, which I attended with the rest of the Coin World staffers.

As to the (alleged, if you prefer) copying of files, that was discussed at great length back in the Editorial Offices at a later date, after the story was reported to us. I do not recall who our sources were.

The files themselves were not transferred to Colorado Springs until at least October, as noted in a story about Ed Fleischmann in the November, 1976 The Numismatist. The three log books used in the DC office to record the receipt and return of coins show entries into October.

Thanks for the added info. As I wrote above, AFAIK, only three people alive know what actually happened at ANACS. What was discussed (you were there) in CW, ANA meetings, and what was PRINTED IN COIN WORLD with a photo of Fazzari that tried to make him into a criminal (I saw the actual newspaper clipping) was all ANA based speculation. Things must have been patched up because I took an ANA Summer Seminar course from him many years later where he related in detail to Ken Bressett (another instructor) the entire history of the ANA move to CO and how Hoskins and the staff declined to move. You are correct, Fazzari was not asked to go. Hoskins stayed behind and started INS (Condor was incorrect) along with Lucien Birkler and several coin dealers.

I had the pleasure of having lunch with Hoskins once during a visit. We talked coins and how modern the "new" INS digs were. The old ANACS was located in a turn of the Century office bank building with marble floors, dark wood walls, elevators with brass accents, etc. I had been submitting coins to them starting in 1973. The INS office was in a modern building. One interesting (to me) change was that INS used a balance good to 4 decimal places (throw out the last number) compared to the model at ANACS (3 decimal places) to ID coins. Hoskins said this was done because one time two $20 coins in the same submission weighed exactly the same each time ANACS authenticators weighed them! INS was weighing and photographing coins (as was done at ANACS) sent to them so no one could claim they were switched.

PS I highly recommend the ANA's Summer classes. You may be in the right place to hear all kinds of inside "baseball stories" from the professional instructors.