The Big Hurt is the Real Deal
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Posts: 226
in Sports Talk
Did you see him bop one last night in his first game as an Oakland Athletic? This guy will waltz into the Hall of Fame.
Lifetime BA: 307
448 Home Runs, will probably join the 500 club
10 seasons of well over 100 RBI's
No evidence of being on the juice in this steroid crazed era.
Full disclosure: I own five PSA Gem Mint 10 rookie cards of Frank Thomas.
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You kidding me?
Compared to Bonds Frank Thomas is a Saint.
<< <i>"broken-down malcontent"
Compared to Bonds Frank Thomas is a Saint. >>
And your point is? He's still been a jerk a good portion of his career.
500 HRs in this era doesn't make him the automatic walk that you claim him to be.
<< <i>448 HR's =
Let's not forget, though, that these appear to be 448 'juice free' home runs. Who else in this era has put up his kind of numbers would chemical assistance? Griffey, for sure, but noone else springs to mind (I could definitely be missing someone, though).
I think the BBWAA is going to go reeealll easy on sluggers who weren't on roids during the '90's, if for no other reason than to send a statement that you can stay clean and still get into Cooperstown. If they leave F. Thomas out, but put Sosa etc. in, it will really send a bad message, and I doubt they want to do that.
He's still been a jerk a good portion of his career
Define jerk. Is Barry Bonds a jerk?
Year RBI's
1991 109
1992 115
1993 128
1994 101
1995 111
1996 134
1997 125
1998 109
2000 143
2003 105
Show me anyone who has the RBI production like Thomas who was not on steroids? Is Hall of Fame election based upon jerkdom or excellence in playing the game?
1994 60
1995 107
1996 112
1997 88
1998 145
1999 165
2000 122
2001 125
2002 107
2003 104
2004 130
2005 144
Okay, how about Manny Ramirez? He's got 435 HR's, and unlike Thomas, is certain to get to 500 HR's (maybe 600 the way he's going), and his RBI production is in many ways better -
Manny will be a shoe in Hall of Famer too. I did not say there were not others but are there any more that were steroid free? Besides Thomas, ARod is another in addition to Manny. This is assuming they were all not on steroids but I have no reason whatsoever to believe any of them were.
and his RBI production is in many ways better
Not many ways but similar.
Without looking up a players statistics besides Manny who you pointed out and ARod who I looked up, all of the steroid boys like Giambi, McGwire, Sosa, Palmiero, and possibly Bagwell come to mind. Oh, and of course there is Griffey who by all accounts was steroid free.
I am not a Frank Thomas fan either, but this guy will be in the Hall. Bonds is 10x the jerk Frank is and if you forgot, in baseball, likability is not a HOF criteria.
Its fairly obvious that Frank didn't juice. Neither did Griffey. These guys were the 2 best players of the 90's. It is a different time now and even more so if you try to discount the cheaters. If you put Mark Grace in the 70's, that guy is a first ballot HOFer.
Manny is great and will surpass many things that Frank did, but tthat shouldn't take away from how dominant he was in the 90's.
Might I add that I am a Cubs fan. This guy deserves to be and will be in the HOF. He left town past his prime and with the class of a stuffed pig, but his achievments spesk for themselves.
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He left town past his prime and with the class of a stuffed pig, but his achievments spesk for themselves.
Like I said, when is likeability a criteria. Although, magnitudes above Thomas' statistics, was Ty Cobb a likeable guy? He was one of the most despicable characters in all of sports ever.
<< <i>He left town past his prime and with the class of a stuffed pig, but his achievments spesk for themselves.
Like I said, when is likeability a criteria. Although, magnitudes above Thomas' statistics, was Ty Cobb a likeable guy? He was one of the most despicable characters in all of sports ever. >>
And you cut out the part where I said the exact same thing. Don't be so inciteful when people are agreeing with you.
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No incite intended. Just wanted to point out Cobb.
My post was intended to a few guys who think a HOFamer should be a poster child.
<< <i>likability is not a HOF criteria >>
Actually, you could say that this factor is the only reason why Jim Rice is not in the HOF. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but there have been times when how a player treated the sportswriters that vote for the Hall has indeed factored in.
Jim Rice should be in the HOF.
<< <i>
<< <i>likability is not a HOF criteria >>
Actually, you could say that this factor is the only reason why Jim Rice is not in the HOF. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but there have been times when how a player treated the sportswriters that vote for the Hall has indeed factored in. >>
Should Mark Grace get in?
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No one's named Sosa directly, either, but he's obviously been linked.
I don't think Thomas will be the shoe in some predict (spammy). And you're saying Thomas is the 'real deal' now, in the twilight of his career?
You're such a dope, spammy.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>likability is not a HOF criteria >>
Actually, you could say that this factor is the only reason why Jim Rice is not in the HOF. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but there have been times when how a player treated the sportswriters that vote for the Hall has indeed factored in. >>
Should Mark Grace get in? >>
I don't see Mark Grace as a HOF caliber player. I realize he wasn't a power hitter, but his career batting numbers remind me of Keith Hernandez or Bill Buckner. Solid players both, but not outstanding enough for the Hall.
Go Frank Thomas! Get your 500 HR's!
zef204, Mark Grace was a very good player and great clutch hitter but I don't think he is a Hall of Famer. I don't even think he is borderline. Grace never hit 20 or more Home Runs in a single season nor did he ever get 100 RBI's. Although he had 90+ RBI's three times and came very close in 1993 with 98 RBI's. There are players more deserving like Jim Rice, Abert Belle, and Don Mattingly who I consider borderline.
<< <i>Don Mattingly who I consider borderline >>
Oh no - not again. 5 good years do not a Hall Of Famer make.
From DK's Dugout -
<< <i>It is tough to imagine there is a more overrated player in the last quarter century than Don Mattingly. Mattingly was good from 1984-89, a six year span, and yet is talked about by many Yankee fans as though he is among the top 10 of all-time. Mattingly had 222 home runs over 14 seasons, a meager total for a first baseman. The fact that his #23 is retired by New York is embarrassing for a franchise that could truly afford to be a bit more selective. Yankee fans love to talk pennants and titles when talking about Ruth, Dimaggio, Berra, Mantle or Jeter, yet I never hear any of this talk when it comes to Mattingly, who played 1785 career games, yet not one in a division title game.
>>
The fact that his #23 is retired by New York is embarrassing for a franchise that could truly afford to be a bit more selective.
I never heard of DK's Dugout until now. Can one find anyone more biased than this?
"DK's Dugout is the creation of Boston sports writer Dan Kelley. Featuring DK's latest articles on the Boston sports scene, Boston Sports Survivor..."
Absolutely, his name is Axtell.
<< <i>I never heard of DK's Dugout until now. Can one find anyone more biased than this? >>
I don't know, but you can bet I'll keep on searching...
What's the point of arguing against Mattingly by referencing a highly biased Red Sox Nation website?
And how about Bert Blyleven? 287 wins, 3701 Ks....who says image doesnt make a difference when getting into the HOF? Blyleven is still whining about this till this day!
Spammy listen up: just because you have a few good years in a yankees uniform, doesn't mean you're a hall of famer! If it were up to the likes of you, Mattingly, Munson, Bernie, they'd ALL be in.
You're such a dope.
<< <i>Mattingly is less deserving of the hall than Thurman Munson, and we all see how well he's done in HoF voting recently.
>>
yet Mattingly's numbers mirror those of Kirby Puckett AND gee, both were sidlined EARLY due to injury/illness
The BIG HURT has NOT juiced IMO ...... his injuries point more to the fact that he is just plain ol FAT
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I (among with many others) have stated numerous times that when you start having to make comparisons to those already in the hall, and you can't make the justification on your own merits, YOU DON'T BELONG in the hall.
Simple.
Mattingly didn't excel long enough to merit induction. END OF STORY. Just because he played in pinstripes doesn't mean he gets in.
I know it hurts your lil yankee lovin heart, but the only way he gets into the hall is to buy a ticket like the rest of us.
<< <i>softy-
I (among with many others) have stated numerous times that when you start having to make comparisons to those already in the hall, and you can't make the justification on your own merits, YOU DON'T BELONG in the hall.
Simple.
Mattingly didn't excel long enough to merit induction. END OF STORY. Just because he played in pinstripes doesn't mean he gets in.
. >>
First of all, I never said Mattingly deserved to be in the Hall. However, when one of the dumbest (Axtell) "members" of this forum are so blinded with their hatred of ANYTHING New York to say that Thurman Munson deserved to be in the Hall LESS than Don Mattingly it is my duty to point out your stupidty. Whether your empty head thinks Mattingly produced long enough or not to be in the Hall is irrelevant. The FACTS are that Mattingly has numbers comparable to Hall members. Then you attack one of the best catchers of the 70's by saying Thurman Munson deserves even LESS than Mattingly to be in the Hall.
Ax, YOU DO NOT know baseball and it would be wise for you to stop acting like you do.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
On Puckett's side, he does have a World Series ring.
On Mattingly's side, he has an MVP.
Mattingly has 9 gold gloves compared to Puckett's 6.
I am now wondering if it really is so far fetched that Mattingly deserves to be in the HOF? This is not a Yankees fan talking but a baseball fan.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
If there is any way to compare Munson to Koufax, Koufax wasnt in baseball long enough for HOF numbers either....as great of a pitcher that he was. He only had 165 wins! And you wonder why Blyleven is still crying in his pillow!
I can see how someone as blind as Axhole can't understand this type of concept.
Maybe if it were Dan Wilson and not Munson he would understand.
go back and read my post ya dope. I said Mattingly was less deserving than Munson, not the other way around.
Munson had a nice career, not dominant long enough. Mattingly was excellent, again, not dominant long enough either.
And again, when your argument for a player's induction is based solely on comparing them to a player in the hall, your argument is now null and void.
Next?
<< <i>softy-
go back and read my post ya dope. I said Mattingly was less deserving than Munson, not the other way around.
Munson had a nice career, not dominant long enough. Mattingly was excellent, again, not dominant long enough either.
And again, when your argument for a player's induction is based solely on comparing them to a player in the hall, your argument is now null and void.
Next? >>
that is TWO times you got me in a week. crap .....
anyway, so Don Mattingly who had THE SAME numbers as Kirby Puckett and was one of the best defensive 1st baseman of his generation is less deserving of Hall consideration then one of the best catchers of the 1970's ??? HOW ?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
If you want to include Munson and Mattingly, then Doc Gooden most definitely has to go in.
I just dont see how being an above average, perhaps stellar player for a span of 4-5 years makes you HoF worthy.
<< <i>Because he just didn't dominate long enough.
If you want to include Munson and Mattingly, then Doc Gooden most definitely has to go in.
I just dont see how being an above average, perhaps stellar player for a span of 4-5 years makes you HoF worthy. >>
I agree, and quite honestly there is no reason to argue since I read your previous post BACKWARDS. I am ashamed to say the least. Let me leave this by saying that the unfortunate injury/illness robbed both Kirby Puckett and Don Mattingly in their prime. It is ironic how similar their numbers are.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Thomas took the Yankees to the woodshed last night.
During the Yankee telecast Michael Kay was mouthing off on how Frank Thomas probably would not make the HOF because he didn't have the manadatory 500 Homre Runs, which he said is not a lock anymore. Ken Singleton strongly disagreed with Kay and said Thomas would make the HOF. Singleton said the same thing I did that 10 years of 100+ RBI's and close to 500 Home Runs (which he will accomplish anyway) will make him a lock. Singleton also pointed out to Kay that Thomas has never been linked to the steroids. Basically what Singleton was inferring is that 500+ Home Runs for steroid fed players might not cut it anymore.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Kay is a pompous blowhard? I think John Sterling is the bigger pompous guy. I used to like Sterling until I couln't take it anymore with his Radio Home Run flyout calls.
Oh but I forgot to add Kay is pretty pompous himself. They use to be good together but when they split up it was like they took pompous pills. LOL
<< <i>Kay is a pompous blowhard? I think John Sterling is the bigger pompous guy. I used to like Sterling until I couln't take it anymore with his Radio Home Run flyout calls. >>
No, Sterling shows humility every now and then. Say what you want about his game calling style, he is not even HALF the pompous a$$ that Kay is.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Steve