Career Save Percentage Hoffman Rivera
Skinpinch
Posts: 1,531
in Sports Talk
Sports fans seem to like the simple evaluations, so here is one.
Career Save Percentage
Trevor Hoffman 90%
Mariano Rivera 88%
If Rivera was so clutch, and knew how to nail it down(according to his post season fans), then why does he have a lower save percentage than a lesser pitcher?? A clutch man would not allow that to happen? Yankee fans, you can't have it both ways. If so, then Hoffman has been the better closer by virtue of nailing his saves down more often.
Rivera is actually the better pitcher, though ERA+ doesn't account for the pinch hitters in the NL(as opposed to facing a pitcher...thus the lower league ERA), as pointed out in another thread. Typically pinch hitters are pretty putrid as a whole though, so it is a very limited difference. Though, closers usually face the best of the bunch.
Another small factor in Riveras favor is that Rivera NEVER has to face the BEST team in the league when he pitches. He may have given up a few more taters if he pitched for Tampa Bay simply because he would be facing the Yankee lineup, instead of the putrid Devil Rays. Again, a very small difference, but it does account for something. That is the Steinbrenner factor.
Post Season...why doesn't Rivera always have a .81 ERA every year instead of just saving it for October? Because he can't control that. Yeah he has been great in the post season, and he has also been great in the regular seasons. He is simply a few bad post season innings away from having stats similar to his regular season stats. Given time, that would even out just like every body else in the post season. By the way, how many titles has Rivera won in the last five years? Did he forget something? Brady will be forgetting in the next five years too. Funny how that happens.
Finally, AXTELL, you are still on the Tom Brady kick. Well, if you recognize Brady as being the best simply by virtue of titles and post season perfromance, then Rivera is not only the best closer ever, he is THE BEST BASEBALL PLAYER EVER, by virtue of that same criteria. He had more chances to blow his teams success than Brady did. Again, it can't be both ways. If Brady is the best ever, so is Rivera and Jeter. Of course we both know the answer to those statements, you are just putting blinders on Brady's reasons for success. By the way, some posters had some EXCELLENT posts in that new brady thread. It made me proud to put a response on the boards again.
The answer to the initial question of the save percentage, is randomness, as randomness runs rampant in sports at that level(especially in post season). Just go play darts with a player of the same ability as yourself, and chart the won/loss of games etc... It won't be winning or losing every other game, there will be groups of good, bad, and even.
There are other factors too, but this is getting too long.
Finally again, Peter Gammons says things to be 'sensational', as that is more exciting than the truth.
P.S. Hoyt Wilhelm is the best reliever ever. Oh, Yankee fans will say players weren't as good then or something, but they would have no problem hailing Ruth as the best ever. Funny again.
P.S. Jose Mesa has an 85% save percentage. Others right in the neighborhood as well.
Career Save Percentage
Trevor Hoffman 90%
Mariano Rivera 88%
If Rivera was so clutch, and knew how to nail it down(according to his post season fans), then why does he have a lower save percentage than a lesser pitcher?? A clutch man would not allow that to happen? Yankee fans, you can't have it both ways. If so, then Hoffman has been the better closer by virtue of nailing his saves down more often.
Rivera is actually the better pitcher, though ERA+ doesn't account for the pinch hitters in the NL(as opposed to facing a pitcher...thus the lower league ERA), as pointed out in another thread. Typically pinch hitters are pretty putrid as a whole though, so it is a very limited difference. Though, closers usually face the best of the bunch.
Another small factor in Riveras favor is that Rivera NEVER has to face the BEST team in the league when he pitches. He may have given up a few more taters if he pitched for Tampa Bay simply because he would be facing the Yankee lineup, instead of the putrid Devil Rays. Again, a very small difference, but it does account for something. That is the Steinbrenner factor.
Post Season...why doesn't Rivera always have a .81 ERA every year instead of just saving it for October? Because he can't control that. Yeah he has been great in the post season, and he has also been great in the regular seasons. He is simply a few bad post season innings away from having stats similar to his regular season stats. Given time, that would even out just like every body else in the post season. By the way, how many titles has Rivera won in the last five years? Did he forget something? Brady will be forgetting in the next five years too. Funny how that happens.
Finally, AXTELL, you are still on the Tom Brady kick. Well, if you recognize Brady as being the best simply by virtue of titles and post season perfromance, then Rivera is not only the best closer ever, he is THE BEST BASEBALL PLAYER EVER, by virtue of that same criteria. He had more chances to blow his teams success than Brady did. Again, it can't be both ways. If Brady is the best ever, so is Rivera and Jeter. Of course we both know the answer to those statements, you are just putting blinders on Brady's reasons for success. By the way, some posters had some EXCELLENT posts in that new brady thread. It made me proud to put a response on the boards again.
The answer to the initial question of the save percentage, is randomness, as randomness runs rampant in sports at that level(especially in post season). Just go play darts with a player of the same ability as yourself, and chart the won/loss of games etc... It won't be winning or losing every other game, there will be groups of good, bad, and even.
There are other factors too, but this is getting too long.
Finally again, Peter Gammons says things to be 'sensational', as that is more exciting than the truth.
P.S. Hoyt Wilhelm is the best reliever ever. Oh, Yankee fans will say players weren't as good then or something, but they would have no problem hailing Ruth as the best ever. Funny again.
P.S. Jose Mesa has an 85% save percentage. Others right in the neighborhood as well.
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ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Since Rivera's fans like to use small sample size to over-inflate greatness, lets take his clutchness a step further....
Sure, RIvera has no problem closing out post season games when his team is up two games to zero, or three games to zero, or in the first game. Those aren't exactly pressurized. How does he do in game sevens???
In the ultimate measure of clutchness( WS game sevens) Rivera has a very Jose Mesa-like 6.67 ERA, and a 1.000 batting average against!!
In his only true measure of pressure, he failed and blew the World Series, sending the Yankees on a pitfall that they have not recovered from(that is Peter Gammons speak. See Yank fans, it can go the other way too). Those are the pitfalls of using small sample sizes to measure somebody's ability. And the pitfalls of perception and all the garbage sports fans and announcers spew.
I don't look at Brady's postseason performances as the only reason he is arguably the greatest QB of this generation.
His regular season winning percentage is outstanding, and continues to come through in the postseason as well. The things he can directly control (TD passes and INTs), he has an amazing ratio as well.
And I see softy is as delusional as ever...how dare we question the greatness of Rivera!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
And I see softy is as delusional as ever...how dare we question the greatness of Rivera! >>
No, what is delusional is the little make believe world you live in Ax. AGAIN, I IMPLORE YOU to find ANY comments I have EVER made that hold Rivera in the light of GREATNESS. You make this stuff up and then start beleiving that people are saying what you are lying about. What an IDIOT!
Skinpinch, why was it so important to start another thread about this topic? Your soapbox not high enough with others around?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>listen, you can prove EVERYBODY average if you twist numbers around enough. You don't have to be a fuc$king rocket scientist to watch a player for 10+ years to know the deal. >>
The problem is you are so in love with anything yankees that you can't look outside the tiny little bubble you live in to see that there are similar players to your beloved yankees.
He's not twisting numbers, just proving your yankee fanaticsm has no bounds of ridiculousness.
<< <i>
<< <i>listen, you can prove EVERYBODY average if you twist numbers around enough. You don't have to be a fuc$king rocket scientist to watch a player for 10+ years to know the deal. >>
The problem is you are so in love with anything yankees that you can't look outside the tiny little bubble you live in to see that there are similar players to your beloved yankees.
He's not twisting numbers, just proving your yankee fanaticsm has no bounds of ridiculousness. >>
Axtell, I was involved in a debate about ONE player. Trevor Hoffman. What are you talking about? What bubble are you talking about? For the 100th time in a row I have asked you to back up your lies and YOU NEVER DO IT. Because you CAN"T back up lies. You are such a tool
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
if this thread is so unimportant as you'd like us to believe, why are you here ranting like a madman?
<< <i>softy-
if this thread is so unimportant as you'd like us to believe, why are you here ranting like a madman? >>
Also, WHERE did I say this thread in "UNIMPORTANT"? WHERE Ax? Again, I ask you to back up the crap that spews from your mouth. Did I make mention that another thread was already talking about this subject? yep. Did I say this thread was unimportant? Nope. More lies from the factory that is your trap.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
<< <i>softy-
if this thread is so unimportant as you'd like us to believe, why are you here ranting like a madman? >>
Also, WHERE did I say this thread in "UNIMPORTANT"? WHERE Ax? Again, I ask you to back up the crap that spews from your mouth. Did I make mention that another thread was already talking about this subject? yep. Did I say this thread was unimportant? Nope. More lies from the factory that is your trap. >>
hmm nice edit you clown. You said:
<< <i>Skinpinch, why was it so important to start another thread about this topic? Your soapbox not high enough with others around? >>
Implying that the topic wasn't important...that the only reason skin posted it was to get on a soapbox.
And speaking of traps, you really need to have yours closed for you...you're such a dope.
I just like prodding you a bit. I agree that Brady is incredible, and with Manning's offensive cast and offensive philosophy he would have no problem putting up the same numbers.
Rivera is the best closer in the game right now too. I just wanted to add these points for a reminder that people go a little overboard on him, as evidence by what Peter Gammons said. It is kind of foolish on what Gammons said.
I am still cringing from having to listen to unsubstantiated claims by Joe Morgan again last night. "If the Reds won 2-1 Tony Perez got those two RBI's. If they we won 9-1 he probably didnt' get any." OK Joe. Too bad Morgan's brain isn't as sharp as his talent, because he was damn good.
Yeah, jsut like Ernie Banks made a living off of hitting home runs in the basket Joe.
<< <i>. I just wanted to add these points for a reminder that people go a little overboard on him, as evidence by what Peter Gammons said. It is kind of foolish on what Gammons said.
. >>
If you just wanted to "add" these points then why did you start a BRAND NEW thread to "add" your points
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Maybe he did it so as not to derail the original thread? And if you don't care, WHY ARE YOU STILL POSTING, dope? >>
Skinpinch was "adding" his thoughts about the Gammons article and Rivera. How would that "derail" the original thread? I see who visits you at noon time everyday Ax
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Besides, I didn't want to interrupt the conversation Dallas and boopotts had going on. They had a good conversation, with lots of good points.
Plus my topic was actually a little different, though in the spirit of it. I didn't want people to forget the Jose Mesa in Mariano Rivera, because it is there when you use the same level of criteria people seem to use to judge clutch etc...
Boopotts had a comment in one thread that was right on and that a lot of people seem to forget, and I think it was the hitting streak thread. It was in regard to the the season 'ending' in October, and in reality it is just a break fromt he 'long' season of the career.
This way of thinking goes a long in way in predictive measures, and people fall prey to only looking within the confines of one 'season' from APril through October.
<< <i>Plus my topic was actually a little different, though in the spirit of it. I didn't want people to forget the Jose Mesa in Mariano Rivera, because it is there when you use the same level of criteria people seem to use to judge clutch etc...
. >>
yeah that is a good one skin. If you look deep enough you can find what you WANT to find in anybodys stats. You can even find the Hensley Meulens in Ted Williams. Don't be ridiculous. This is baseball .... and what do ALL baseball players do? They FAIL
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
If you have a chance I would like to see who you think are the 5 or 10 best pitchers of all time, and compare that will Dallas' list. I think that would make for an intriguing discussion.
<< <i>
<< <i>Plus my topic was actually a little different, though in the spirit of it. I didn't want people to forget the Jose Mesa in Mariano Rivera, because it is there when you use the same level of criteria people seem to use to judge clutch etc...
. >>
yeah that is a good one skin. If you look deep enough you can find what you WANT to find in anybodys stats. You can even find the Hensley Meulens in Ted Williams. Don't be ridiculous. This is baseball .... and what do ALL baseball players do? They FAIL >>
THAT is exactly my point softparade!!! Given enough time, they will fail, and ULTIMATELY their post season stats will much resemble their regular season stats. Bernie Williams should have retired after his first three or four seasons, as he would have been labled the most clutch player in the universe. Unfortunately, he was given ample time to have his true ability be reflected in his achievements, and in the end he was shown to be no different than what we already knew based on his thousands of regular season at bats.
Rivera has about a season and a half worth of post season innings. Look what Gagne did in his two year run. Guys have peaks like that all the time, some guys are just fortunate enough to have them in October, and luckily time is on their side, because eventually they would run into a bad streak in October. There could be other factors too. He could also possess a hinge of clutchness too, but not to the degree everyone makes it out to be.
Regardless, RIvera is not as good as Wilhelm. Though Rivera si the best of his time. Again, releivers are waay overrated, especially in this era. Mesa is right on the tail of Rivera in Save percentage, and that kind of highlights that. Jose Mesa.
And soft some of this post is tongue and cheek, BUT yes you can find anything you want in the stats, BUT NOT ANYTHING THAT HAS VALIDITY! Fans find stuff all the time, and most of it has no validity. With a good research project you can get to 90-95% of truth. Heresay gets you about 30% to truth.
Boopotts, the best pitchers all time is wrought with difficulties in sorting through the eras. Anything that is heavily favored towards one era intuitively comes up as odd and usually not accurate. The dead ball era is usually that era in regards to pitchers. It is an interesting topic, and maybe I can add something on that another time. I like a lot of your reasoning on things. A good mind that sees things other than the narrow scope is good to have
<< <i> .
And soft some of this post is tongue and cheek, BUT yes you can find anything you want in the stats, BUT NOT ANYTHING THAT HAS VALIDITY! Fans find stuff all the time, and most of it has no validity. With a good research project you can get to 90-95% of truth. Heresay gets you about 30% to truth.
. >>
and with that I offer you up a
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I like the first week where you get the free preview of the baseball package. I get my Scully fix. If I wasn't so busy, I'd subscribe to it.
Hoyt Wilhelm. Look at his numbers from 1958 to 1969. Wow!
JoeBanzai
James ranks Wilhelm the number one reliever in his book with Eckersley second. The book was written a while ago, though so it would be interesting to see where he ranks Rivera.