Omar Vizquel = Hall of Famer? (vs Ozzie Smith)

Writer11

I know I need a life but these are the things I ponder. In some ways it's hard to fathom Omar Vizquel as a Hall of Famer, but it may not be that far fetched. I know stats aren't the be all and end all, but check out this comparison to The Wizard of Oz. I'm still on the fence about this. But I think that a case could be made for Omar. What do you guys think?

Omar Vizquel

Career Totals - 17 major league seasons
BA - .274
Hits - 2,301
SB - 342
Doubles - 376

- played in six post seasons, no World Series ring
- post season average .312
- three-time all-star
- 10-time Gold Glove winner


Ozzie Smith

Career Totals - 19 major league seasons

BA - .262
Hits - 2,460
SB - 580
Doubles - 402

- played in four post-seasons, one World Series ring
- post season average .303
- 15-time all-star
- 13-time Gold Glove winner

Axtell

Ozzie played in an era where shortstops weren't seen as offensive players like they are now.

Ozzie was seen as the finest defensive SS of his generation, and it more than made up for his offensive shortcomings. Omar, while a fine SS, just doesn't cut it offensively among his peers.

I'd vote no.

yawie99

I think you answered your own question when you said "stats aren't the be all and end all." I don't know what it was like following Vizquel's team day in and day out, so I'm a little biased in that regard, but Ozzie defined the Cardinals for the better part of a decade - a decade that was marked with a reasonable amount of team success. He also hit one of the most famous home runs in team history, which probaby yielded the most famous home run call in team history. That's just one moment, but such moments go a long way toward contributing to one's candidacy. Factor in what Axtell is saying and Ozzie's a worthy HoFer while Vizquel probably is not.

Writer11

You make great points, but, just to play devil's advocate, wouldn't Vizquel be considered the best defensive shortstop of his generation?

Axtell

<< <i>You make great points, but, just to play devil's advocate, wouldn't Vizquel be considered the best defensive shortstop of his generation? >>



Perhaps, but (a) he's not that much better than his peers and (b) a shortstop now needs to have offensive numbers to match his defense. I just don't see him being good enough on both sides to warrant induction.

dallasactuary

By using BA instead of OPS+ you imply that Vizquel was a better hitter than Ozzie. He wasn't. Ozzie's OPS+ was actually a little better than Vizquel's.

Ozzie was the best shortstop of his generation, it is true, but stopping there only tells a small part of the story. Ozzie was the greatest shortstop of all time; everybody who watched him play knew it had to be true, and Bill James has confirmed it with a variety of statistics. While they are based on arcane statistics few people know about, Ozzie set fielding records in the early 80's that are as unlikely to ever be broken as DiMaggio's hitting streak. The gap between Ozzie and the next best shortstop is probably larger than at any other position.

Throw in the intangibles that Yawie mentioned and Ozzie was an obvious HOFer. Vizquel's not even close.

Writer11

This is why I love this board. You guys are very knowledgeable and make great points. Ozzie might be a bad person to compare Omar too. How about Aparicio?

I'm not saying that Omar should be in the Hall. I just thought he is one of those guys who come eligibility time might surprise people with the number of votes he does get. I think he might be one of those guys who stays on the ballot for years, but never gets in. What do you think?

Wabittwax

<< <i>Omar Vizquel
- three-time all-star

Ozzie Smith
- 15-time all-star >>



I think this might be the stat that makes the difference. HOF is also determined somewhat by a popularity contest. This stat also reflects what others are saying in that it depends what the players other counterparts are doing in that era.

Axtell

I am thinking that if you have to use other hall of famers as your point of reasoning why a particular player should be in, and he can't stand on his own merits against his peers, then he likely doesn't belong in.

I consistenly hear 'well so-and-so is better than THAT guy who's in the hall...so my guy should be!'

He was a solid player, but not a HoFer.

onlyanumber

<< <i>

<< <i>Omar Vizquel
- three-time all-star

Ozzie Smith
- 15-time all-star >>



I think this might be the stat that makes the difference. HOF is also determined somewhat by a popularity contest. This stat also reflects what others are saying in that it depends what the players other counterparts are doing in that era. >>



i'll second what Wabbitwax says. The All-Star appearances makes a world of difference in this case. You can show someone a picture of Ozzie Smith and more than likely they will know who he is. Can't say the same about Vizquel.

As for defensive greatness during a generation, look at Keith Hernandez--11 straight gold gloves and a five time all star and Hernandez doesn't have a chance at the Hall until the Veterans committee needs a live body one day. Ozzie is the exception to the rule--his defensive play is what catapulted him towards the Hall. His popularity with the fans and writers got him in.