Need VAM Help with this 1878-P Morgan - and what's up with these LINES?

nesvt

Trying to attribute this 1878-P Morgan and have two questions.
1. Anyone know the VAM?

I've heard the terms "thread like impressions" and "struck through lint".
2. Is that what is going on over the reverse?
Point on 4th right star is broken. R in TRUST is not broken. Slight doubling on top of 7 in date. B2 reverse.

Almost the entire reverse is covered in these raised lines. It's not just the fields. I can see them in the letters and details of the eagle.



obverse
reverse
wing
date
more lines 1
more lines 2
more lines 3
more lines 4

dwssws

first of all it is a 1878 p

I see you already editted it while I was replying

Wolf359

They also appear on the common 8TF VAM-14.1. Leroy calls them die flow lines, not clashes or anything else.

wam98

It sure is interesting.

nesvt

<< <i>first of all it is a 1878 p

I see you already editted it while I was replying >>



I was having brain gas. When I was reducing the images, I named them 1878S. I did the same thing in the title and body of this thread. When I screw up, I try to be consistent!

dwssws

it is an interesting coin!

DorkGirl

I can't help but, very cool!! I love your pics

gtstang

That closeup image is absolutely outstanding

ibzman350

Woo, now datz some strange looking stuff.


Die Flow lines ?????


reminds me of the white icing I use to put on pastry when I worked in my fathers bakery.


Interesting find Norm.




Herb

rich

Cool Pic's !Nice Find.

jdsinva

With a II obverse and a B2 reverse, that should narrow it down to probably 6-8 VAMs it could be. Any scratch lines in LIBERTY?

nesvt

<< <i>With a II obverse and a B2 reverse, that should narrow it down to probably 6-8 VAMs it could be. Any scratch lines in LIBERTY? >>



No scratches in LIBERTY, but I did just notice a scratch in the wheat stalk. Looks like it matches the VAM 134? VAM 134 has a B2a reverse. With the wing area on this coin, it is a B2f reverse? Now I'm thinking maybe a VAM 196?

Coxe

Leroy probably just missed the overpolishing on the reverse in the VAM-134 designation, which I think is the likely one.

Those are not flow lines. They are scratches on the die probably from a repolishing. They are spectacular on that one. The VAM-2A also has some outstanding ones. The way you can tell they are scratches is in the continuity in the fields on separate sides of the devices (like through the bottom leaf above the E of ONE) and in their uniform (tool) thickness. Look at the right upright of the D in DOLLAR in your image. Now that is really interesting. Looks like a lot happening in there.

coindeuce

The spaghetti like lines in relief on the surfaces are die polishing lines of the most extreme magnitude, and could be classified as die gouging as well except for the consistent pattern of looping in the lines which is a clear indication of the use of die a polishing device. Not considered extraordinary by most VAM collectors, yet most interesting testament to the fever pitch in the coining room at Philadelphia in 1878. Remember, Van Allen and Mallis catalogued nearly 300 die marriages for 1878-P alone, a clear indication of organized chaos in the coining room at the beginning of Morgan Dollar production.

coindeuce

BTW cookie, looks like a B2e reverse, and if I am correct in observing the break in the base of the D in DOLLAR, most likely a VAM 195. Although a common die marriage, yours would be the 1st I've seen with the die polish lines. Probably a late die state as indicated by the die crack at tops of STATES.

nesvt

<< <i>BTW cookie, looks like a B2e reverse, and if I am correct in observing the break in the base of the D in DOLLAR, most likely a VAM 195. Although a common die marriage, yours would be the 1st I've seen with the die polish lines. Probably a late die state as indicated by the die crack at tops of STATES. >>



Who is "cookie"? Was that the cook on McHales Navy?

Not sure the D is a broken D or not. It is notched on the bottom, but I don't think it's a fully broken D like the B2e reverse.

Die scratch like the 134, missing wing feathers like the 196, and a possible broken D like the 195. Hey, I'm down to three and that's better than where I was yesterday.
The 134 and 196 have difference obverse dies.... which make it's confusing (at least for me).

MAD4MORGANS

I'm going out on a limb here but after tearing through my VAM books and attribution guides (didn't go to Ashmore), I think this is a new die pairing.

The reverse with the partially broken "D" looks like a VAM-196 B2f reverse but the obverse doesn't seem to match the II2 of II/I22 obverses. The obverse seems to match the VAM-134 because of the die marker scratch in the wheat leaves/headband area.

Since the VAM-134 mentions it's the obverse of II 7, it should have doubled "R-BUS UNU".

Norm needs to check this to verify if this is the case.

nesvt

Thanks Terry. Unless the doublling is strong, I have a hard time seeing it. Leroy says "slightly doubled at top inside of letters toward coin center". I guess I can see some doubling, but "slightly" makes it tough. I took some photos of several letters. The doubling I see (which isn't always right) is more on the inside of the letters near the outside of the coin (not near the coin center). I'll probably set it aside for a while. Next time I have something to send him, I'll send this along as well.

E L R B S U N U