? Question about original dies

dizzyfoxx

This may be an obvious question (but not obvious to me)
Are all/most/some/few of the original dies which created our nations coinage throughout the 1800's and early 1900's still in existence today, or were they destroyed after their mintages?

TorinoCobra71

Usually they are destroyed.......

TC71

OffMetal

Mike Byers might have a few......

KoinDawg

I don't know about olden days but the mint now cancelled the die and then sells it as a souvenir on the U.S. Mint Site. At least that's what they've done with the statehood quarters.

morganbarber

The ones that you will find are destroyed by a large "X" through them, but they are easily recognizable as dies.

librtyhead

<< <i>The ones that you will find are destroyed by a large "X" through them, but they are easily recognizable as dies. >>

yes but I believe some were used after the x was done on them simply finding an obverse not x'ed and a reverse not x'ed creating counterfeit coinage.now they just nuke the thing so nobody can see anything,then sell them!

MICHAELDIXON

I think most of the old dies were destroyed. This is a die used to strike 1968 Proof quarters. It has been defaced, as most have, rendering them useless to counterfeiters.

Conder101

In the early years of the Mint they were often kept if they weren't broken. Broken dies were sold as scrap metal without being defaced. After the Mint fire in 1816 at last a bushel basket of dies was recovered from the site and sold for old steel. Many of these eventually made their way into the collection of Joseph Mickley. When his collection was sold the Government stepped in an bought the old dies back.

During the mid-nineteenth century the mint did keep the old dies and hubs and used them from time to time to restrike coins and patterns at the request of various collectors. At one point the Director requested permission to do this on an official basis and offer these rare dates and patterns for sale at a profit with the proceeds goinf to improve the mints own collection. rather than letting the collectors and dealers make the profits. The result was that they were ordred to stop making the restrikes and to pack up the dies.

Well if they couldn't do it officially for the mints benefit, they'd just do it for their own. And the era of the officiers of the mint and some family members lining their own pockets was ushered in and that is where many of the restikes and fantasy patterns came from. Also the Class II and Class III 1804 dollars. Finally in 1871 Director Linderman ordred that all the old dies be destroyed, after several impressions were made from each. (You know Linderman had a fabulous collections as part of his estate, including a Class III 1804 dollar.)

I believe the Act of 1873 finally directed that the dies were to be destroyed at the end of each year "by fire and sledge". That pretty much ended the dies getting out of the mint. Oh a few made it out here and there, and there was a group of Carson City dies that were discovered several years back under a sidewalk at the CC mint during renovations. The group of 1968 and 69? proof dies defaced and sold for scrap. The Olympics dies defaced with an X. And the rcent state quarter and Coin and die sets with the face fully ground off.

cladking

<< <i>In the early years of the Mint they were often kept if they weren't broken. Broken dies were sold as scrap metal without being defaced. After the Mint fire in 1816 at last a bushel basket of dies was recovered from the site and sold for old steel. Many of these eventually made their way into the collection of Joseph Mickley. When his collection was sold the Government stepped in an bought the old dies back.

During the mid-nineteenth century the mint did keep the old dies and hubs and used them from time to time to restrike coins and patterns at the request of various collectors. At one point the Director requested permission to do this on an official basis and offer these rare dates and patterns for sale at a profit with the proceeds goinf to improve the mints own collection. rather than letting the collectors and dealers make the profits. The result was that they were ordred to stop making the restrikes and to pack up the dies.

Well if they couldn't do it officially for the mints benefit, they'd just do it for their own. And the era of the officiers of the mint and some family members lining their own pockets was ushered in and that is where many of the restikes and fantasy patterns came from. Also the Class II and Class III 1804 dollars. Finally in 1871 Director Linderman ordred that all the old dies be destroyed, after several impressions were made from each. (You know Linderman had a fabulous collections as part of his estate, including a Class III 1804 dollar.)

I believe the Act of 1873 finally directed that the dies were to be destroyed at the end of each year "by fire and sledge". That pretty much ended the dies getting out of the mint. Oh a few made it out here and there, and there was a group of Carson City dies that were discovered several years back under a sidewalk at the CC mint during renovations. The group of 1968 and 69? proof dies defaced and sold for scrap. The Olympics dies defaced with an X. And the rcent state quarter and Coin and die sets with the face fully ground off. >>



Thanks Conder101. Would you agree that probably 99.9% of all US mint dies
have been destroyed and that 99.99% of all the die detail is missing or highly
degraded?

PhillyJoe

I've seen documents dated December 31st of different years showing an accounting of all the dies used that year where all the Mint officials had to attend the destruction and sign a document attesting to it. Most of the ones I've seen are from the 60's.

Joe

Shamika

I may be wrong, but I believe dies from one of the Fugio cents still exist intact.

BuffaloIronTail

There's no doubt that anomallies exist........given what we all know about the Mint's less-than-stellar truthfullness in the past........and even today........with the Doubled-Die coins being produced. (they say it's impossible).

So treat Mint talk with a grain of salt.

ALL used and new dies from a previous year, when a design was discontinued........were supposed to be destroyed.

No USABLE DIES were ever meant to be released or used by the public.

Morgan's 1921 Dollars for example, had to be re-done. All the old dies were destroyed as prescribed by law. That account for the subtle differences encountered with 1921 Morgans.

The Mint never thought they would ever be produced again.

But leaks in the system.........HMM.........food for thought.

Let's just say that discontinued coinage dies are...by law......supposed to be destroyed.

Pete

dizzyfoxx

Thanks for all the great information everyone.
It just amazes me how much someone can learn being a part of this forum.
This forum is like the ocean and I'm just a big sponge!

Nysoto

The 1806 half dollar obverse 11 exists in excellent shape, plated in the Eliasberg catalog. The 1805/4 obv 1 half exists with die breaks, and the obverse for 1806 O.110 is still around with a huge die crack. Others still survive, these are the ones I am aware of.

typo edit

Conder101

<< <i>Thanks Conder101. Would you agree that probably 99.9% of all US mint dies
have been destroyed and that 99.99% of all the die detail is missing or highly
degraded? >>


I would say that is most likely true for surviving post 1890's dies. For earlier dies 99.9% of them have been destroyed, but most of those that survive show most or all of their detail. (The hoard from the Carson City find are severely rusted though.) Many of them do show cracks though.



<< <i>I may be wrong, but I believe dies from one of the Fugio cents still exist intact. >>


I don't believe any of the dies for the original Fugios still exist but at least five of the New Haven Restrike dies still exist.

PerryHall

<< <i> The Olympics dies defaced with an X. And the rcent state quarter and Coin and die sets with the face fully ground off. >>



The treatment received by the olympic dies should more appropriately be called "cancelled" rather than "defaced" since they have a neat X machined across their face and 95% of their design is still intact. The state quarter dies were definately defaced since the design is totally removed. As far as I'm concerned, you shouldn't call them dies any more since there is no longer any evidence of any design. Scrap steel may be a more appropriate term.