Will the perfect undetectable counterfeit eventually be made?
fivecents
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I was reading about how much the quality of the counterfeits have improved over the years. They used to be crude lead copies, easily detected. Now they are being made of the same silver finess and weight as the originals. The details and look of have also greatly improved. Eventually could the perfect counterfeit, completly undetectable to the third party grading services be made?
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Freak
That's a scary thought.
<< <i>Yes, technology will make it possible. But then, how do we know it's counterfeit? Sell! Sell! >>
TorinoCobra71
<< <i>it took PCGS Years to figure out about the FAKE Micro-O Morgans...... >>
Torino...I wasn't talking about added mint marks or altered coins, but counterfeit from scratch.
Freak
<< <i>
<< <i>it took PCGS Years to figure out about the FAKE Micro-O Morgans...... >>
Torino...I wasn't talking about added mint marks or altered coins, but counterfeit from scratch.
The Micro O Morgan dollars were not an "added mint mark" variety, rather they WERE made from scratch. They were done about 100 years ago
Tom
<< <i>If it is perfect then is it counterfeit? And who would even know except the maker. >>
All of us coin collectors would know when hundreds maybe thousands come here from over seas or where ever. We just couldn't tell the difference between real and fake....the market would crash.
<< <i>I would think the maker of the coin would want bragging rights and add something to the coin that nobody would catch, and sometime down the road it will come out as it has in the past. >>
I think the bragging rights would be what is called "bank".
<< <i> Or would he ...?
>>
Maybe he would just laugh all the way to the bank.
<< <i>Do Toned coins count??? >>
Nope. That would be an altered coin...unless they are toned counterfeits.
<< <i>
<< <i>Do Toned coins count??? >>
Nope. That would be an altered coin...unless they are toned counterfeits.
Definition
counterfeit Show phonetics
adjective
made to look like the original of something, usually for dishonest or illegal purposes:
San Diego, CA
<< <i>I would think the maker of the coin would want bragging rights and add something to the coin that nobody would catch, and sometime down the road it will come out as it has in the past. How else could the maker prove his point ? Or would he ...?
Freak >>
Anyone remember the Omega coins? Freak has a point here.
<< <i>For all we know they are already out there, perhaps even in quantity. >>
That thought gives me the shivvers.
<< <i>Another question it, would the counterfeits be better quality wise than the originals and the originals will get rejected by the grading companies? >>
Then it wouldn't be the perfect counterfeit, would it?
<< <i> I would think the maker of the coin would want bragging rights and add something to the coin that nobody would catch, and sometime down the road it will come out as it has in the past
How else could the maker prove his point ? Or would he ...? >>
I think a cert # would be good enough for me.
Oh, and by the way, I hear several bags of Full Strike 1921 Peace Dollars are starting to come onto the market. When this fact finally becomes common knowlege it will be too late for those holding original examples. The value may very well plunge to $15 overnight.
Anyone holding an MS67 or better original example - sell it to me now for a most generous $500. I am only offering to do this as a way out for you. I'm just a really generous guy - that's all.
Sure - and I bet that coin doctors are already getting their work authenticated by PCGS
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<< <i>Anyone holding an MS67 or better original example - sell it to me now for a most generous $500. I am only offering to do this as a way out for you. I'm just a really generous guy - that's all. >>
I am sure I can find you a few MS67 1921 Peace 1$'s graded by third world grading services.
<< <i>I think a cert # would be good enough for me. >>
Well as long as it is PCGS or NGC I would agree. PCGS (or maybe their Insurance) I believe covered a mistaken case of CF's a couple years ago. My hat is off to them, which is why I buy PCGS.
Freak
I like scarce gold because it has the bullion value driving it's price and no one will take the expense and effort of trying to counterfeit it.
Suppose I claimed that I personally faked the 1870-S half dime, and that my work was "undetectable".
There, did the price just go down
<< <i>
<< <i>it took PCGS Years to figure out about the FAKE Micro-O Morgans...... >>
Torino...I wasn't talking about added mint marks or altered coins, but counterfeit from scratch.
The 1959 Wheat cent that was the basis for that GREAT forgery book would be an example of a counterfeit from scratch. Confounded a lot of experts.
I can't find my copy of that book right now but seems like the creator of that coin posed the question, (and I paraphrase) "If I create a coin that's technically perfect and passes scrutiny of expert and is deemed genuine, isn't it for all intents and purposes, then genuine?"
<< <i>The Gallery Mint comes pretty close.....only one word: "COPY" away.
They also vary the design just enough so that it doesn't exactly match any known authentic dies.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>Suppose I claimed that I personally faked the 1870-S half dime, and that my work was "undetectable". There, did the price just go down >>
With one, maybe not. With a thousand, well...
The simple answer to the question is yes, but the real question is when. I do not see this happening any time during our lifetimes.
I believe that originals will always be worth more and that 99.9 % of all counterfeits will eventually be detected.
There will always be great numismatists who will eventually detect counterfeits.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
With computers and lasers able to slice microns off a cornea it won't be too long before someone uses them to clean up a field. With tens of thousands of dollars between grades someone is going to figure out a way to do it.
<< <i>i personally think it would be easier and more lucrative to counterfeit the slabs. Do this and put a 64 coin into a 65 holder where the price difference is worth the efforts >>
That's already been done, with 1st gen. slabs.
<< <i>There was a show in the discovery channel about a man that copied casino slot tokens. The setup cost him about $100,000. The first one he made didn't work so he sent the original to a lab to get the exact metal content. The slot machines somehow test the metal properties before it accepts them. When he got his metal correct they were accepted. The only way the casino caught on was when the did an annual audit of tokens, and they had way too many. Some of the suspected counterfits were sent off to the company thet minted them for authentication. They all came back authentic. Meanwhile the man had branched out into other casino's tokens. He had passed something like $300,000 before the finally got him. The only way they found him was he got a $20 token stuck in a machine and just walked away. This aroused suspition and eventually they busted him. I guess the point is he was able to get them by a complex machine, and the mint without detection. Some of the tokens he copied were way more intricate that regular coinage. All it takes is a will, and a payout in the end. >>
i saw that show. he hadn't copied the tokens exactly. he missed a tiny portion that was practically undetecetable without study.
<< <i>There was a show in the discovery channel about a man that copied casino slot tokens. The setup cost him about $100,000. The first one he made didn't work so he sent the original to a lab to get the exact metal content. The slot machines somehow test the metal properties before it accepts them. When he got his metal correct they were accepted. The only way the casino caught on was when the did an annual audit of tokens, and they had way too many. Some of the suspected counterfits were sent off to the company thet minted them for authentication. They all came back authentic. Meanwhile the man had branched out into other casino's tokens. He had passed something like $300,000 before the finally got him. The only way they found him was he got a $20 token stuck in a machine and just walked away. This aroused suspition and eventually they busted him. I guess the point is he was able to get them by a complex machine, and the mint without detection. Some of the tokens he copied were way more intricate that regular coinage. All it takes is a will, and a payout in the end. >>
i saw that show. he hadn't copied the tokens exactly. he missed a tiny portion that was practically undetectable without study.
Having said all that, I think such a setup would be prohibitively expensive. First, you have to get your hands on a coin valuable enough to copy with such a process. Then, you've got to put the equipment together. And when you're done, you've got a perfect copy, but how many can you sell? The mintages of U.S. coinage is known. If someone suddenly dumps Confederate cents on the market, people will know something's up. I think there's too much history involved for a person to come along and make enough copies of counterfeits to make it worth the expense of making a perfect copy.
Just my opinion, though. I could be full of crap.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>The cost of the setup is a fixed cost. That dosen't mean you couldn't make a few copies of many different coins. I would think the sfotware involved in getting the copy would allow you to erase enough imperfections to make it look different. If it were me I would make mid-level priced coins because they wold recieve less scrutiny. I could make 100 $300 coins and never raise an eyebrow or risk making a $30000 coin and have the buyer study it for days. Do this over a few series and you would have a tidy profit. The trick would be not to flood the market. >>
A lot depends on how expensive the equipment is, and how quickly you can churn out copies with it. If it's $100,000.00 and can churn out 100 coins a day, then it's no sweat to make your money back with $300 coins. But if it's a slower process or more expensive, then it becomes a waiting game to see whether your luck runs out before you've made your money back. After all, even if your counterfeiting is perfect, it's often not the crime itself that gets people caught, but the behavior around it. (People who commit really clever times almost always have a hard time not bragging about it to someone.) My guess is that once the counterfeiting machinery was discovered, the machine itself would give the counterfeits away. (In other words, the authorities produce a coin with the process, examine it microscopically, and look for signs of the process itself, which would have to be there, no matter how it was made.)
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>I'll also mention there is no crime in effecting an upgrade of a coin vs. making either conterfeit coins or slabs.............. >>
See, that's the machine I want to own. Give me something that takes my AU-58 Morgan and turns it ito a MS-70 CAM Proof.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
If it's undetectable then how would it be discovered as counterfeit?
Already been done. In fact, we know of some counterfeits only because the counterfieters were caught in the act. Otherwise, the fakes would not be known to us, since the quality was, esentially, perfect.
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<< <i>Already been done. In fact, we know of some counterfeits only because the counterfieters were caught in the act. Otherwise, the fakes would not be known to us, since the quality was, esentially, perfect. >>
Were they prosecuted, Dennis?
<< <i>Were they prosecuted, Dennis? >>
Certainly.
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