Grading Midterm.... Failed....
McDonis
Posts: 279
As a new collector my first task has been to learn how to grade coins. I started by reading books and then purchasing a few rolls of cheep state quarters and some graded quarters and morgans. Then I went to my father in law who has collected since the 60's and got some pointers. After working through about 300 quarters and then showing some to him to get his opinion I felt I was far enough allong to check my efforts. I submitted 2 coins (state quarters) that I felt were strong 68's at least or low 69's. Now granted spending 20 bucks on grading two quarters that at best probably wont be worth more than the cost to grade is silly, but that wasnt the point. I wanted to see how close my grading was to the "experts". Since I live in Columbus I went to Anacs and yesterday got the results.
Ms-66 and Ms-67
Needless to say I was very dissapointed, not with Anacs but with my grading skills. I noticed that acording to pop reports that PCGS hasnt graded a WV D mint over MS-68 so perhaps my coins arent that bad. If I can figure out how to take a good scan of the two quarters I will post them here. Does anyone have any advice or thoughs they can share. I want to try to learn how to do this better but I seem to be far off the mark as of now.
Ms-66 and Ms-67
Needless to say I was very dissapointed, not with Anacs but with my grading skills. I noticed that acording to pop reports that PCGS hasnt graded a WV D mint over MS-68 so perhaps my coins arent that bad. If I can figure out how to take a good scan of the two quarters I will post them here. Does anyone have any advice or thoughs they can share. I want to try to learn how to do this better but I seem to be far off the mark as of now.
Bottom Feeder collector, Happy collector of Moderns
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Comments
And keep in mind that you got one opinion - ANACS's - on your coins. You said you compared yours to slabbed quarters you already owned. Were they graded by ANACS as well? If not, you might be comparing apples and oranges because each TPG has its own standards.
You're trying to do one of the hardest things in the hobby, which is grading MS coins as a new collector. It's similar to trying to call balls and strikes at the major league level without any prior umpiring experience. The skilled umpires don't miss many, but someone who is new might easily wonder how in the world you can tell if a pitch is an inch outside or if it just caught the plate. They look the same to the novice, but the experienced eye can discern the difference.
I don't believe grading MS coins is a skill which you can acquire from books. You need to look at lots of coins, and especially learn HOW to look at coins. You need to understand that a surface mark in one place can hurt the grade more than the same mark somewhere else, that the obverse counts a lot more than the reverse, etc.
If you have no way to take a hands-on grading class through the ANA, or have an experienced collector help mentor you, then I would recommend sticking to one grading service for your submissions, and brutally analyze your results compared to your expected grades. You'll spend a lot of money, but you can do it. That's how Russ did it, and he's done pretty darn good.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>The grade is a combination of factors - strike, luster, surface marks, eye appeal and toning (if present). Even if you see everything, but combine the factors incorrectly, your grade will be off.
And keep in mind that you got one opinion - ANACS's - on your coins. You said you compared yours to slabbed quarters you already owned. Were they graded by ANACS as well? If not, you might be comparing apples and oranges because each TPG has its own standards.
You're trying to do one of the hardest things in the hobby, which is grading MS coins as a new collector. It's similar to trying to call balls and strikes at the major league level without any prior umpiring experience. The skilled umpires don't miss many, but someone who is new might easily wonder how in the world you can tell if a pitch is an inch outside or if it just caught the plate. They look the same to the novice, but the experienced eye can discern the difference.
I don't believe grading MS coins is a skill which you can acquire from books. You need to look at lots of coins, and especially learn HOW to look at coins. You need to understand that a surface mark in one place can hurt the grade more than the same mark somewhere else, that the obverse counts a lot more than the reverse, etc.
If you have no way to take a hands-on grading class through the ANA, or have an experienced collector help mentor you, then I would recommend sticking to one grading service for your submissions, and brutally analyze your results compared to your expected grades. You'll spend a lot of money, but you can do it. That's how Russ did it, and he's done pretty darn good. >>
Thanks for the advice....
I figured I was about 1 to 2 points off when I submitted them. Yet I also choose 2 coins that were hands down the best of the ones I went through. After going through them all I felt very strongly in the 68-69 grade. To get one back as 66 made me feel that I am definately missing something important.
I think where I am going wrong is not finding bag marks or nicks, I think its in determining Strike, luster and eye appeal. Frankly I am not sure how to tell Strike but I think I have an idea. As for eye appeal and luster that is so subjective that I bet it causes problems for everyone.
However with State quarters I would think the Strike, Luster and eye appeal would be minimial issues due to consistancy with modern coins. Am I way off on this??
With the strike I noticed that on WV quarters on the bar it has a texture that is compairable to wood grain. Yet on many quarters this is non existant and the surface is flat.
If a collector is looking at prices and values for upper grades, and hoping to strike it rich by submitting coins from a mere few rolls, the odds are like hitting the lottery, especially for the novice. I hope some of the modern experts will weigh in. From their stories, I get the impression that most of them search through many mint sets, proof sets looking for the best coins. A few hundred might be a days worth of looking, without ANY coins worth submitting. And these are people that have been doing it for many years.
Good luck to you, but you need to be realistic in your expectations. It doesn't have much to do with moderns or classics. If a collector bought an average roll of sealed Morgan dollars, they'd do well to get one MS65 out of the roll with maybe four MS64s, the rest 63s or 62s. The higher priced grades just not that common, that's why they command the higher prices.
<< <i>A reality check is in order. MS68/69 business strikes are not common coins, except on bullion items. Each company has its own standards. A 65 at one company might be a 68 at another. Keep in mind the average grade for the business strikes. The way PCGS does things, the best coins out of a hundred might be one grade higher than average, the best coins out of ten thousand might be two grades higher, or maybe not. Checking a few hundred is unlikely to yield "killer" grade coins, i.e. the covet MS68 or 69.
If a collector is looking at prices and values for upper grades, and hoping to strike it rich by submitting coins from a mere few rolls, the odds are like hitting the lottery, especially for the novice. I hope some of the modern experts will weigh in. From their stories, I get the impression that most of them search through many mint sets, proof sets looking for the best coins. A few hundred might be a days worth of looking, without ANY coins worth submitting. And these are people that have been doing it for many years.
Good luck to you, but you need to be realistic in your expectations. It doesn't have much to do with moderns or classics. If a collector bought an average roll of sealed Morgan dollars, they'd do well to get one MS65 out of the roll with maybe four MS64s, the rest 63s or 62s. The higher priced grades just not that common, that's why they command the higher prices. >>
Thanks
Ok, I probably didnt word things very well. When I placed the grade on the coins it wasnt because they were the best of the lot so they got that grade. I tried to use a system of looking for imperfections, depending on the number and location of the imperfections I would lower my score accordingly. On the two coins I sent in, I only saw one minor inperfection on each. Because I only saw one minor imperfection (small surface scratch on front) and no bag marks or major dings I felt that made them a 68 or 69. (location of the imperfection was not on the bust) Obviously I am not taking into account luster, eye appeal or strike. I think that is where I am going wrong and why my grades simply dont add up.
No I understand I am not likely to "hit it rich". The whole point of this excerise is to get my grading skills "close" to something considered normal. The point being I want to be able to view raw coins and get a better idea (1 to 2 points of actual grade) so that I know what I am buying. I am using state quarters because they are plentiful and cheep. I can go through hundreds of them with out spending that much cash.
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<< <i>It appears to me you accomplished your goal to be within 1 - 2 points. You thought they would be 68/69 and you received 66/67 - that's 2 points. congratulations ! >>
Granted I am close
But the 66 score kind of bugs me. Like I said I felt they were a solid 68 and possible 69. In my mind I had already taken the 1 point different in account by grading them 68. When one of them came back 66 I realized that my grading is missing some components. If this one is that off then my other coins are way way off because I was not so tough on them as I was on these two.
Can anyone give me some ideas about Strikeeye appealluster that can help me understand the grading process more. In some ways I kind of feel that most of these 3 are so subjective as to be un-scientific.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Sounds like you just need to adjust your expectations down a couple points.
ANACS business strike circulating issue MS69 - 0
ANACS business strike circulating issue MS68 - 0
ANACS business strike circulating issue MS67 - 15
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
<< <i>
<< <i>A reality check is in order. MS68/69 business strikes are not common coins, except on bullion items. Each company has its own standards. A 65 at one company might be a 68 at another. Keep in mind the average grade for the business strikes. The way PCGS does things, the best coins out of a hundred might be one grade higher than average, the best coins out of ten thousand might be two grades higher, or maybe not. Checking a few hundred is unlikely to yield "killer" grade coins, i.e. the covet MS68 or 69.
If a collector is looking at prices and values for upper grades, and hoping to strike it rich by submitting coins from a mere few rolls, the odds are like hitting the lottery, especially for the novice. I hope some of the modern experts will weigh in. From their stories, I get the impression that most of them search through many mint sets, proof sets looking for the best coins. A few hundred might be a days worth of looking, without ANY coins worth submitting. And these are people that have been doing it for many years.
Good luck to you, but you need to be realistic in your expectations. It doesn't have much to do with moderns or classics. If a collector bought an average roll of sealed Morgan dollars, they'd do well to get one MS65 out of the roll with maybe four MS64s, the rest 63s or 62s. The higher priced grades just not that common, that's why they command the higher prices. >>
Thanks
Ok, I probably didnt word things very well. When I placed the grade on the coins it wasnt because they were the best of the lot so they got that grade. I tried to use a system of looking for imperfections, depending on the number and location of the imperfections I would lower my score accordingly. On the two coins I sent in, I only saw one minor inperfection on each. Because I only saw one minor imperfection (small surface scratch on front) and no bag marks or major dings I felt that made them a 68 or 69. (location of the imperfection was not on the bust) Obviously I am not taking into account luster, eye appeal or strike. I think that is where I am going wrong and why my grades simply dont add up.
No I understand I am not likely to "hit it rich". The whole point of this excerise is to get my grading skills "close" to something considered normal. The point being I want to be able to view raw coins and get a better idea (1 to 2 points of actual grade) so that I know what I am buying. I am using state quarters because they are plentiful and cheep. I can go through hundreds of them with out spending that much cash. >>
Okay, my apologies. Grading 101: luster, strike and overall eye appeal give a base grade. From that look for hits or imperfections to subtract from that base grade. Again, think about what the average grade is for the coins you are considering. For business strike state quarters it maybe 65. If that is the average, a 67 is going to be a knockout exceptional coin with a great strike, sizzling luster and no marks visible to the naked eye in the primary areas.
For business strike Morgan dollars it is going to be 63/64. A 66 is going to be one-in-a-thousand or so for most Morgans. Expecting a 67 or a 64 DMPL (deep-mirror-proof-like) from an average batch Morgan rolls is unrealistic. So is expecting a 68 from an average batch of state quarter rolls, so I think you did well. Another post mentions the ongoing auctions for Anacs business strikes. With zero 68s active, the odds of a new collector getting one are probably nil.
Ok here is what I took from what was said, please let me know if I am reading this right....
(possibility 1) It seems from what was said that instead of starting with 70 and then whittling down they (graders) start from say ms-68 or 67 and then whittle down. From the numbers that were posted it seems that perhaps this is the thinking?
(possibility 2) Yet on the other hand it seems like from what was said was that its not a case of they just dont give that score but more of a case that Business strikes simply never get to that level of quality to make such a grade.
Basicly when I grade coins I set the initial grade as 70 and then whittle down the score based on the inperfections and where they are located. I do admit that with some coins I lowered my score even more because of things that are not necessarly imperfections but take away from the look of the coin. The vast majority of the coins I graded perhaps 85% or higher fell into MS-64 or lower.
If its just a case that BS coins never are made to that level of quality then it still means I am not seeing the factors that make it a 66 vs a 68 or 69. Again I am more concerned that I am missing some imperfection or quality that quantifies this coin as a 66. I believe you guys are right, especially with the pop numbers I just want to be able to see what you guys are seeing.
Then look for marks. Any marks on the primary area and 66 is probably out, 65 is shaky. Again, these base grades and minuses for marks will vary depending on the series.
For modern proofs it might be okay to start at PF70, especially if submitting to ICG or NGC. Some collectors believe that PCGS is inconsistent with that grade, sometimes describing it as more of a lottery than any obtainable grading standard learnable by normal people.
From what you've stated, it seems that you are scrutinizing your coins and paying close
attention to details. When looking for marks be sure to rotate, or wobble the coin under
your light as some marks only jump out at you when lit at certain angles. Also, be sure to
use a pinpoint light source such as a halogen or incandescent bulb - never use a flourescent
light as the diffuse nature of the light can mask some marks. Try to develop a systematic
approach to viewing the coin so that you always look at the central devices, fields, dates,
lettering around the rim, and the rims themselves.
I'm not familiar with grading the state quarters, so can't comment on what to look for
in strike or luster. As was stated above, however, each grading service will have their own
standards which can vary slightly from grader to grader and day to day - maybe even
whether it's early or late in the day! Some of these factors are our of your control, and
as has been shown on these forums time and again, the same coin resubmitted can easily
come back with a different grade - either higher or lower.
If your coins would have graded 68 and 67 (which they easily could on another day, or at
another service), you'd be feeling better about your skills, though the coins themselves
haven't changed!
Just keep doing what you're doing, getting better over time, and if you get back coins
that you feel are undergraded, send them in again (if it's financially worthwhile) until they
get it right.
Ken
holy crap, kranky, exactly what out of the way Bush Little League games have you been watching??
<< <i>YOu gotta remember that a 68 or 69 will have virtually NO visible marks at all. Even with a loupe you will have a hard time finding a mark.
Sounds like you just need to adjust your expectations down a couple points. >>
PCGS in ms68 allows for some contact and so does the ANA.ms68.....with the unaided eye.....In the grade ms69 it wouldn't..................
<< <i>holy crap, kranky, exactly what out of the way Bush Little League games have you been watching??
We won the Super Bowl, so I would say they did an excellent job the entire way through the playoffs.
Actually, I think it's a fair analogy. The novice umpires and officials would miss more calls than the skilled ones. That's not to say the skilled ones are perfect.
It's the same for grading. More skill and experience means better and more consistent results. Not perfect, but better.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
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I also agree with the points that Morgannut & Solid made - the coins are graded at PCGS using incadescent light, so be sure to tilt the coin under a fairly bright ceiling light (at night you will notice more tiny marks & surface disturbances than in daylight) and check for ANY marks, regardless of size or location. I agree that for MS coins, the scale does not begin at 70, but rather closer to 69...I think that it is assumed a BS coin can not be 70 to start with. I have tried your method of grading - by the book - starting at 70 and working back. It doesn't add up, according to PCGS's own grading guidebook...try starting at 69 anf d then going backward. Also, market grading IS a factor in moderns such as SHQ, even if not to the extent of "classics", so a coin has to be as close to perfect as you've ever seen to get a 69 ( I've never had a coin come back MS69, but I have had my share of 68s over the years).
As kranky says, obverse is more important than reverse, however, if a coin has any mark that I can see easily without a loupe, I don't submit it - it won't get higher than 67 (and that depends on where & how large the mark is). You are correct in your assumption the "eye-appeal" is not a great factor when dealing with SHQ series, since virtually all coins submitted will have great surfaces. The strike IS an issue, and you have to watch for coins struck from older dies, when the letters around the rim aren't fully brought up, or some of the higher relief areas of the design are soft.
All-in-all, you've done your homework, and practice,practice,practice, makes perfect (or as close as you can hope!) - my first submissions came back as low as AU58!!!
Enjoy the search - that's what makes theose finds special!
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