Reiver Bust Half resale: Were HRC bidders too optimistic?

mozin

Here is a common 1832 Capped Bust Half NGC AU53 that just sold on EBay.
EBay sale

Here is the EXACT SAME coin sold by Heritage in the Reiver auction.
HRC Reiver auction

I am sure there have been many more Reiver coins resold. I wonder how many Heritage winning bidders are now realizing such a huge dollar loss in only two months.

fc

that is quite the hit.
similair amount of bidders though.

get rid of the juice on the heritage price... it comes more
into line with the ebay selling price.

i hope i have better luck than that person when the time
comes to sell.

mozin

I can't believe how little response I got on this thread. Maybe the winning collectors are afraid to admit they paid too much for Reiver coins? The CU dealers probably don't want this brought up either, for fear it will hurt Reiver resale.

Barndog

I guess people who purchased the holder and the name (Reiver) on the holder might be disappointed with their purchases if they attempt a flip inside of two months. Collectors who purchased die marriages or die remarriages that they can't typically find aren't trying to flip their coins, so my guess is these collectors are not at all disappointed.

I know I'm not disappointed and I haven't tried to flip any Reiver coins...I still own all the ones I won.

JadeRareCoin

We won over 120 coins in the Reiver auction. Can't remember the exact amount, but it was 3 long slab boxes. So far, we have made money on every coin sold out of the sale. The worst situation was a proof 1914 half that we "won" by accident (got caught on the off bid). We sold it in Baltimore for a $3 profit!

The key to buying out of the Reiver sale was to carefully inspect every coin before bidding. Ignore the slabbed grade and render your own opinion about technical grade and eye appeal.

Regarding the auction that you linked, I can tell you that I was shaking my head on many lots that closed for too much money. There were some artifically high bids.

Another thing to consider is that some bidders who won 20 or 30 coins can afford to lose on a few coins here and there, as they will probably offset such losses with the other "winners" that they purchased. Just a thought.

mgoodm3

That coin was bought with the intention of selling for a profit. Guess they lost on that one. I would guess that most collectors don't mind paying a little too much because they plan on holding the coin for a while.

slumlord98

I bought four coins there, one of which I'd love to get out of. The other three are coins that are long term holds and I'm glad to have them. Something like that 32 104 may well be of widget quality; add to that the generally accepted notion that this sale was very loosely graded by NGC irrespective of the problems some coins may have, and it's not a winning formula for sellers.

stman

<< <i>Maybe the winning collectors are afraid to admit they paid too much for Reiver coins? >>



With respect, I recall when this sale went down you were posting on all the boards saying how you lost most of your bids. Yes, some of the coins went very strong. I bid and won one lot from this sale. Did I pay too much? Probably, but not out of line for what the market is, and has become.

So basically I see this coin you have linked went for about 20% less. Many coins if you sell them (that are not Reiver) coins will sell for 20% less or more if sold within a couple months. I agree, the market for these Bust coins has become stronger day by day. I will also be honest as that's what kinda guy i am....
It seems this post is showing your sour grapes. Seems like you are trying to say... "I told you so." As I mentioned way back to one of your posts on this matter...... don't be so "Thrifty" next time. Myself, rather than put a bunch of wimpy bids on many lots hoping to get them cheap, I just bid to win on what I want. OK, you wanted some attention calling out the collectors that paid too much? You got it! Heh

Edit to add.... the one and only coin I bid and won, was looked at in person for me by a very respected pair of eye-balls.

Julian

I believe that the vast majority of coins in the Reiver collection were purchased by collectors.

Perhaps the collector that purchased this one has improved upon it and wanted to sell what was now a duplicate.

I have long maintained that most coins that are purchased at auction cannot be immediately resold for a profit.

This would especially be true of a collection that was geared to the collector base.

There are no guaranteed profits in numismatics.

Barndog

I don't think the Reiver sale prices are a dead horse just yet, so let me beat some more.

I bid on bust half dimes (plus one bust dime for a die state study I am doing) and was successful on a number of them. I had an agent check on each lot in person. We discussed all of the coins prior to my setting maximum bids. Lots of people didn't do this. Lots of people depended on Heritage photos and NGC or NCS evaluations. Liberal grading by NGC and NCS was the rule of the day. An example of what I thought were just stupid prices includes lot 22093 LINKED which I figured would close much, much lower than $2,760! The coin was beat up. NCS got it right with the assessment of VF details, but I don't think this is a $2,760 coin! There's no way that my XF example of the same die marriage is worth anywhere near five thousand. I could put it up for auction in an NGC holder via HRC and my guess is it would hammer lower than the Reiver coin. The blood in the water really attracted the sharks for that coin. I could go on, but then the horse would be dead.

cmanbb

<< <i>I can't believe how little response I got on this thread. >>



Had I seen it, I would have thrown in my 2C.......

I think most coins that sold (after the first ......say 50-100 coins) where prices were very strong............started the trend/domino/frenzy affect, where as bidders were thinking, I better go a little/alot higher IF I WANT IN. I also believe, that the better die mariages were bought by collectors, at collector prices, which may have affected other bidders thoughts/ideas.

JMHO

I even bid a MAX bid of (if memory is correct) $3750 on an MS61 1808/7...............and lost

morgannut2

I found at auctions recently that the coins bringing irrational money are frequently bought by internet bidders who relied on the online catelog and images. Of coarse many others are just super-rare nice examples sought by multiple expert collectors.

marmac

I walked away with about a half dozen peices from the Reiver sale. Did I pay a premium for the pedigree? Most certainly a portion of my bid went to that. Would I take it in the shorts if I were to try and sell those coins right now? I don't think so, but then I really could care less. As they aren't going anywhere anytime soon and I did not purchase them with the intent for short term flip.

What I am most pleased about from the Reiver Auction was that I was able to attend a portion of it and look first hand at hundreds of coins until my brain was fried. Most importantly, my notes on all the lots I viewed are in my reference library to review whenever a Reiver coin comes on the market .

RYK

I bought a single coin, a circulated New Orleans reeded edge half for my type set. Did I overpay for it? Beats me. Am I happy with the purchase? You bet. The coin came out of its slab within nanoseconds of hitting my house and resides in my 7070 album. I doubt that this sale was an investor's dream, but instead, more of a collector's playground. From what I have read about Mr. Reiver, that's probably what he would have preferred.

Julian

From what I have read about Mr. Reiver, that's probably what he would have preferred.



You are 100% correct!!!

Cladiator

<< <i>I doubt that this sale was an investor's dream, but instead, more of a collector's playground. >>

Exactomundo

MikeKing

Actually that was my coin/ebay auction. I don't think I overpaid much for the Reiver coin, yes, there was a 'premium'. I think it's a great coin held in hand, that's for sure. I didn't buy it to turn a profit. What made me sell it so quickly was that I found another coin (that I could overpay for) more suited to my collection and being in a cash crunch, sold the Reiver coin. I think it won't be easy to find another one like it, it's a great coin.

mozin

Now that is the kind of discussion I wanted from you people!!!

Lots of good points made.

I looked back on my Reiver bids actually placed. I placed 14 bids, won one at my max, and was underbidder on two lots. Was it HRH that said winning one in ten bids was about right?

MikeKing,

I did not know you were the seller of the coin I used as an example. No offense whatsoever intended anyway.

MikeKing

no offense taken at all, I think it was an interesting post, and there are a lot of Reiver coins going up for reauction on ebay which raises a lot of questions as to why. Perhaps these sellers got them at a good price...I don't know if they are reaping any profit.

Barndog

MikeKing made a good point: Many coins in the Reiver sale went for a good price (from the buyer's standpoint!). I recall Dick Osburn telling me that there were going to be some very high prices realized for scarce to rare coins, but if one was looking for quality coins at a relative bargain prices, one would do well to bid on the "common" varieties (the R-1 and R-2 coins). He was right on target. Many of the coins being sold now by some of the more astute sellers of bust material (like Dick Osburn and Jade Rare Coin to name but two examples) have some beautiful Reiver coins and are asking reasonable prices on them...and the sellers will still make a small profit because they were careful (careful = view the coin in person!) with their buying.

MikeKing

Actually, Mozin, I thought about it and I am VERY insulted. I'll give you ONE chance to make it up to me.
Sell me your 1820/19 Bust Half.

mozin

<< <i>Actually, Mozin, I thought about it and I am VERY insulted. I'll give you ONE chance to make it up to me.
Sell me your 1820/19 Bust Half. >>

You mean that old rusty thing?

Regulated

In the case of the Reiver sale, paying an incompetent dealer might have been helpful for a lot of these guys.

GOLDSAINT

Big auctions in this market are bringing high-end prices on nearly every coin, that’s just the market today. It is very common to see collectors and small dealers loss money trying to flip coins for a profit in the short run. Just yesterday an 1812 MS 61 sold on ebay for $920 that sold a few months ago at Heritage for $1265. This situation has little to do with the Reiver sale.

The real benefit of the Reiver sale was that there were many many condition census coins that collectors might have the opportunity to only bid on every decade. Sure there were lots of common coins and that is the area that collectors had to be careful of, however that is the case every day. One of the coins I bought for my registry set was so rare for the grade that NGC has marked it as a display only coin commenting that it was unfair competition, that seemed pretty dumb to me, but that is the way they marked it.

All truly rare coins sell for top prices, and above, in this market at auction today, and collectors that are looking to flip these for quick profits are just gambling.

Unless you are a recognized dealer that can promote rare coins for a profit this flipping business is very risky.