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Nolan Ryan vs. Steve Carlton: who was better?
cuda440
Posts: 150 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
I've been having this long on-going debate with a friend of mine as to who was the better pitcher. I say it was Ryan; he says Carlton. I think Ryan was clearly the more dominant pitcher with a mind-boggling 5,714 strikeouts, 7 no-hitters, 12 one-hitters, 324 wins, but i think around 292 losses(his achilles heel). I think those losses were due primarily to the mediocre/bad teams that Ryan played for. He didn't get enough run support from his teams. But to Carlton's credit, 329 wins and 4 Cy Young awards was certainly well-earned(i don't know off-hand how many K's he got). He played on great Phillies teams that produced some explosive offense. And it certainly helped to have a teammate named Mike Schmidt belting out 538 career homers. The Bull Greg Luzinski had great power as well.
at any rate... i give the edge to Ryan. agree/disagree?
at any rate... i give the edge to Ryan. agree/disagree?
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Ryan had the heat, and the K's and no-hitters to prove it. He was a great pitcher and a worthy HOFer. I just think Carlton was the better pitcher.
Local radio guy here in NY once said if he needed to win one game that he can name 50 pitchers that he'd rather have on the mound than Nolan Ryan. I think he was exagerating a bit but i kind of get where he was going with it
Dave
<< <i> He played on great Phillies teams that produced some explosive offense. And it certainly helped to have a teammate named Mike Schmidt belting out 538 career homers. The Bull Greg Luzinski had great power as well.
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Yes, but there was also that one year (1972) in which the Phillies had only 59 wins and Carlton was 27-10 with a 1.97 ERA!!!
aconte
Carlton lifetime Win Shares: 366.9
Ryan lifetime Win Shares: 332.3
Carlton's 1972 season was deemed the best in the majors in the past 70 years with a score of 40. Ryans best year was 1973 with a 28 score.
Carltons best five years: 29 25 40 29 26 25 24
Ryans best 5 years: 28 24 22 21 18
Now, if you are unfamiliar with James' work or you don't believe in it, these numbers are meaningless. However, stats aside, Lefty was an amazing pitcher who, imho, could throw rings aroung a legend, Ryan.
What gets Ryan a lot more votes is (a) he wasn't nearly as surly with the media as Carlton was and (b) those gaudy K's and number of no hitters.
But overall, who do I want on the hill to win a big game? Carlton.
<< <i>I'd have to go with Carlton.
What gets Ryan a lot more votes is (a) he wasn't nearly as surly with the media as Carlton was and (b) those gaudy K's and number of no hitters.
But overall, who do I want on the hill to win a big game? Carlton. >>
I think it should noted that before Carlton finally retired, there was a back and forth battle between him and Ryan in regards to who was the strikeout king. There were a few times Carlton actually took the lead when it came to total lifetime K's. It wasn't until Carlton was finally out of the picture before Ryan was able to blow him away with those gaudy amounts of K's.
Keep at it folks.
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That should probably settle things, both very very fine hurlers, and possibly who had the better relations with the media comes into play as well.
If I had my dithers and needed one start for all the marbles I'd choose Carlton.
Not many remm this but after Ryan passed Johnson as the alltime K leader Carlton passed Ryan and for a short time was the alltime K leader.
Steve
On April 27, 1983, Ryan struck out the Montreal Expos' Brad Mills for the 3,509th K of his career to move past Walter Johnson into sole possession of first place on the strikeout list. However, later that season, Steve Carlton challenged Ryan and eventually passed him on June 7, 1983, when he recorded his 3,526th strikeout -- one more than Ryan. The two went back and forth for the rest of the season, but Ryan eventually passed Carlton for good during the 1984 season.
Unfocused, impulsive collector of everything ...
<< <i>Who has the better lifetime ERA ???
That should probably settle things, both very very fine hurlers, and possibly who had the better relations with the media comes into play as well.
i checked their lifetime ERA at baseball-reference.com and it's very close:
Ryan 3.19
Carlton 3.22
really interesting replies so far. seems fairly even in the vote count..
<< <i>
<< <i>Who has the better lifetime ERA ???
That should probably settle things, both very very fine hurlers, and possibly who had the better relations with the media comes into play as well.
i checked their lifetime ERA at baseball-reference.com and it's very close:
Ryan 3.19
Carlton 3.22
really interesting replies so far. seems fairly even in the vote count.. >>
Ryan's lifetime ERA is a little better than Carlton's largely because Ryan spent a decade pitching in the Astrodome. If you adjust for that, by looking at ERA+ instead of ERA, you get
Ryan 112 (12% better than average)
Carlton 115 (15% better than average)
The margins are never that great, but Carlton was a little bit better than Ryan at just about everything that really matters.
<< <i>I'd say Carlton - based on a number of factors. But, funny how our hobby thinks the opposite...Carlton gets almost no respect in the card world, while Ryan items are among the most desired. No idea why that is. >>
Yeah, I talked about this in another thread. Obviously, it's all about popularity. People collect who they like, not who is better. Ryan was the stereotypical, tough overachiever who was also quite likeable and approachable. You couldn't help but love the guy when he was still bringing it on at his advanced age. It makes all of feel a little younger. Same for George Brett when he won his last batting title and when George Foreman became a champ again at age 40.
Carlton however, has always had this image of being an a-hole, since he was so adversarial with the press and others. Also, he was painful to watch in his last two years. What was once a dominating pitcher, became someone that you were embarrassed to watch and actually pitied. You could not wait to see him go. That, coupled with the fact that he really wasn't a very likeable guy to begin with, didn't exactly help him win over any new friends. First impressions are always good, but when it comes to this collecting market (especially pitchers), that last impression is what we all seem to remember.
In my view, that's what decides it. I'm not putting down God given talent, but have you ever noticed on a team, or even in individual sport, there's that athlete you just can't figure out how he/she does it? Well, eventually you do: it's spirit, guts, working really, really hard to do the best they can with what they've got. What's that movie about that small football player at Yale who got to play in one game, one or two plays? Well, that's what I mean. Just keeps at it. Day in and day out. Practice after practice. Game after game.
Well, that's where I put Nolan Ryan. Man, that guy worked really hard to achieve what he did. And that's why he was still able to really hurl that ball even when most at his age couldn't hang.
Some have commented that Steve Carlton should have quit earlier in his career, but anybody who's been there, no matter the league, knows it's hard to quit. But if you really want to play effectively you've got to make the extra effort not to be just "hanging around" because you used to be great.
Don't get me wrong, both Nolan and Steve are legends, but I just happen to feel that Nolan had to work a lot harder to be in the same league as Steve. That's why I voted for Nolan.
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His cards are as a whole extremely undervalued.
<< <i>Both are pitching Gods. Lefty was unreal in his prime. I have to choose Nolan Ryan - c'mon...seven no-hitters and twelve one hitters. This comparison is like George Foreman and Muhammed Ali. >>
Good analogy but just like Ali was better than Foreman, Carlton was better than Ryan.