n00b ? - Understanding this world of 'Modern Card Collecting'

blacksoxfan

So while i know there are places for me to read about this ad nauseum but b/c of my lack of available free time ... i thought i'd get an unfettered opinion here. While i think there are a number of similarities between collecting pre-war vintage, vintage, and modern cards ... there are some very unique intricacies to each focus. First and foremost, you don't have packs or fullsets available for E107's like you do for an 87 donruss set. I'd like people to elaborate on those differences. For that matter, what ultimately determines a packs value....how were cards inserted into packs... i hear of people tearing into boxes to find cards...yet at other times people are perserving the packs and having them graded. What were the different distribution methods. also, what sort of issues with fraud that might not exist for a card from 1907 type than for an 83 Topps. Oh yeah, and what's the deal with inserts... with all of them out there... how do they obtain any value?

Thanks.

fsjeter

My goodness! How many topics can we get into one thread? But seriously. As far as I am concerned, the only similiarity is that they are all cardboard. Beyond that, there is a world of difference between collecting vintage/prewar versus modern. With few surprises I might add.

1) Availability - Aside from low serial#'d cards, Vintage/prewar cards are not as readily available as modern issues especially in high grade condition. Due, in part, to the hobby boom and proliferation of cards and sets beginning in the mid to late 1970's. Before anyone begins the contradiction and amends the last statement to the mid 1980's, keep in mind that set sizes grew after the 1977 set from 660 cards to 729. I believe this caused a slight increase in production which accounts for the limited availability of unopened late '70's material. The lack of availability caused an increase in value for vintageprompting the aforementioned boom from investors, ergo, the increase in production in the mid '80's to meet the investor demand. This high volume production continued on into the mid '90's and card values suffered. Enter serial numbered cards/subsets to limit availability and push card values back up.

2) Pack Values - IMO, Pack values are determined, in large part, by the perceived value of the possible cards to be pulled from the pack. Another factor is the availability (there's that word again) of the packs in question. Enter pack grading. I'm not sure I understand this concept beyond authenticating. I, personally, don't collect packs. I would rather open it and get the cards graded. A GAI 10 wax box is no more valuable than a mint unopened box from a reputable source IMO. I may keep the display box for nostalgia, but I'd buy the box to open it not display it so paying a few hundred dollars premium for a graded box isn't worth it but that's me.

3) Inserts - As stated before, the limited quantities and popularity dictate the values. I include the latter because there are low numbered inserts from late '90's sets that, at one time, were very valuable but are close to worthless now. Try selling a late '90's low numbered Jordan Insert today, when there are low numbered, signed Jordan's in current products selling for below the published value of the earlier insert.

That's it for now! I shall return tomorrow!

Scott

2dueces

Paper drives, smaller production runs and lack of value is the biggest reason for pre war scarcity in higher grades. No way to store them over long periods to keep them safe exept for gluing them in albums. Even the father of collecting glued all his cards in albums before donatiing the to a Museum. They had no value, just a collectable. I bet every Griffey rookie ever pulled went form pack to hard case in 3.4 seconds. No more bike spokes, inserts into your ball hat to make the front stand up straight, rubber bands, flipping and shoe boxes, Anything with any value at all from mid 80's till now found it way into albums and hard cases .

kingraider75

anything that is truly rare, usually retains it's value.

A lot of modern inserts can be found on Ebay for $1 each, regardless of book value.

blacksoxfan

Being a fairly focused pre-war collector (I'm sure you can figure out my focus), trying to explain why those cards go for such tremendous prices is an in depth conversation in its' own right. However, i think that topic is something i have a great deal of understanding of. What i cannot figure out is how any xavier nady card can ever go for quadruple digits. It sounds like you can buy boxes of these cards (boxes consisting of many packs), sets (boxes consisting of one of every card in the set) or large cartons that contain both. Thanks for the input so far, i'd love to hear more thoughts.

joestalin

A BGS 10 Pujols RC sold for 29K a few months ago. There are no more than 500 of them in circulation, and chances are there are
less. I don't know how many Mays or Mantle rookies there are in circulation, but it seems like there are plenty of people out
there ready to throw money at modern cards, or players who are not in the hall yet, rather than open up thier wallets on guys
like Mantle and Dimaggio, not to mention some guy in the "high series" who batted .135 lifetime!

.....and I didn't even mention exquisite basketball..oops I just did.

Kevin

blacksoxfan

Without knowing the specifics, i would guess that with the various number of inserts and alternative issues provide people with many choices now a days when selecting a "rookie" card. Like i said, i don't know the specifics. I could be way off... but i would be surprised. I think most mainstream production cards from the 50's on (EMPHASIS ON MOST) can be found with relative ease. Such is not the case for T210 Jacksons (although not his rookie card), any of the Just So Tobacco's, 1894 Alphas (14 total cards in existence - one for each player).

softparade

<< <i>

Before anyone begins the contradiction and amends the last statement to the mid 1980's, keep in mind that set sizes grew after the 1977 set from 660 cards to 729. I believe this caused a slight increase in production which accounts for the limited availability of unopened late '70's material.
Scott >>



The 1971 Topps set had 752 cards in it. The 1972 Topps set had a WHOPPING 787 cards in it. But who is counting

fsjeter

<<The 1971 Topps set had 752 cards in it. The 1972 Topps set had a WHOPPING 787 cards in it. But who is counting

And yet the production numbers for those years still don't approach those of the late '70's thru the early '90's.

From 1973 to 1977 a complete set was 660 cards. This increased to 726 cards from 1978 to 1981. From 1982 to 1994 set sizes increased to 792 cards (with the lone exception of 1993 which was 825) before falling back to 660 in 1995 and 440 in 1996.

Scott

blacksoxfan

I will say that for me, the word vintage usually is reserved for pre-1940 stuff. As you might assume, the concept of going to a store to buy an entire box of cards simply to find one or two in there is beyond foreign to me (at least it has been since my last box purchase as a 10-year-old). I think the wolrd of card collecting has gone through 2 or 3 major changes since the early 00's (i'm talking 1900's here). First in the early fifties when the corporate card companies came into existance, then again in the 70's and finally again in the mid-90's when the inserts/packs exploded. More on point then, what is it that drives the value of cards today? I understand if a pujols goes for a good amount of money, but how is one insert valued over another ... what makes the difference?

bowdowntome

One of the major differences I see in pre-war cards and the cards of today is WHY they were produced.

Pre-war cards, for the most part, were produced as an incentive to buy a product, be it candy, gum or cigarettes. The manufacturers of those products didn't care one iota if you saved the cards, just as long as you bought their products. I'm sure there were more people than not, who just threw the cards away when they bought a pack of cigs, which is why the numbers of existing examples is comparatively low today.

Today, the cards themselves are the incentives and are produced specifically to be saved and preserved. The vast majority of the large numbers produced are going to be saved and will stay in top condition for a long time. Also, card companies today, for some reason, started intentionally making short-printed cards, not because they had no room on the sheets for that extra card, but simply to create something worth more money (I sure hope this FAD ensds at some time).

fsjeter

<<I understand if a pujols goes for a good amount of money, but how is one insert valued over another ... what makes the difference?[

In a word. Scarcity. That coupled with the popularity of the set and/or player. Everyone puts out 1/1 printing plates now but the sets that are more popular with the collectors enjoy higher values on their 1/1's. The problem is, that's only good until the next set is issued. The values don't hold from year to year like the vintage cards. Albert Pujols is a prime example where set/player popularity dictates the value rather than scarcity. His 2001 Donruss Signature AU RC is numbered to 330 and is valued at approx. $500.00 while his 2001 SPx AU RC is numbered to 1500 and is valued around $550.00. When compared to the Bowman Chrome Refractor (which is numbered to 500 but it was a redemption so there may not be 500 in the market), I think the Donruss Signature is way under value.

Scott

blacksoxfan

LOL, see that would lead me to believe there really is no rhyme or reason. If scarcity is arbitrarily arrived at ... in any event, i appreciate all the input. I'm not an investor, but if i was, i would put all of my money into pre-war vintage. If there are 10 different bowman issues in one year, i just can't see how one becomes particularly more valuable than another.

JoeBanzai

You got it half right. The driving force behind this kind of collectible is not supply as much as demand. Time and time again posts to these message boards have brought up examples (Greg Jeffries for example) of rookie cards that were plentiful and at one time expensive.

I believe that supply affects the price too, but can actually reduce the demand if potential buyers percieve it as unattainable.

On the new inserts that are equally scarce, some 5 0f 10's go for a lot more than others. Demand drives the market.

JoeBanzai