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Another 19th Century proof copper...

coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭
in World & Ancient Coins Forum
Not British though... image

Given my affinity for 19th-century Romanian proofs, I thought I might branch into other similar areas. This one piqued my interest. Krause indicates a proof for this date only, but not the other dates in the series. Seems kind of odd that proofs would be minted only for one date, and not even the first date of the series...

Any clue as to mintage?

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Comments

  • SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭✭
    Very nice, sometimes I wonder why Portuguese coins haven't hit the ceiling yet. If this was Greek, its value would have easily been a 4 digit one.

    Dimitri



    myEbay



    DPOTD 3
  • newsmannewsman Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Very nice, sometimes I wonder why Portuguese coins haven't hit the ceiling yet. If this was Greek, its value would have easily been a 4 digit one. >>



    They're headed in that direction.
  • josemartinsjosemartins Posts: 88 ✭✭


    << <i>
    They're headed in that direction. >>



    They are already there, simply the guy who gave KM their catalogues values for Portuguese coins had two things in mind:
    - Attributing Low prices to valuable coins (so they could be bought cheap from abroad).
    - High prices to common coins (to be sold several times they real value to overseas customers).

    Of course, there are 4 figures "coin varieties" that aren't even listed in KM (of common coins, i bet sometimes dealers don't understand why a Portuguese buyer wanted that cheap coin image ).

    In this particular case, there isn't any "proof" coins for this year, there are simply "proof-like" coins. This happen in a lot of Portuguese date/types and some of these are quite common, so lets put those in KM and sell these for some $$$... image

  • coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Very nice, sometimes I wonder why Portuguese coins haven't hit the ceiling yet. If this was Greek, its value would have easily been a 4 digit one. >>



    They're headed in that direction. >>



    I'll admit that a small part of the reason I pick up some of these pieces is speculative. I see the moon money that people are paying for 20th century slabbed material and can't help but think that at some point that demand is going to trickle down into these obscure 19th century proofs. I may be all wet on that idea, but when I compare the prices of 19th century world proofs to (1) 20th century material and (2) U.S. 19th century proofs, the older world material is comparatively cheap.

    The other part of the equestion is that I don't recall having seen one of these before, and I would have remembered...
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  • coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭


    << <i>In this particular case, there isn't any "proof" coins for this year, there are simply "proof-like" coins. This happen in a lot of Portuguese date/types and some of these are quite common, so lets put those in KM and sell these for some $$$... image >>



    The only problem with that argument is that for this date UNC = Proof as far as listed catalogue value. Or are you saying that both are overvalued in Krause?
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  • josemartinsjosemartins Posts: 88 ✭✭
    If you saw a XIX century coin with the same value as UNC and "proof" you would think the "proof" value was correct? You wouldn't mind paying a little extra? Right? imageimage ; ) image
    The Portuguese catalogue price for this coin/date/grade is 17 Euro, but i admit it would cost me around 25 to get one this nice...

    All i'm saying is that if someone is buying/selling Portuguese coins and want to build a collection, they should get better information than KM.
  • coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The Portuguese catalogue price for this coin/date/grade is 17 Euro, but i admit it would cost me around 25 to get one this nice...

    All i'm saying is that if someone is buying/selling Portuguese coins and want to build a collection, they should get better information than KM. >>



    So you're saying that Krause is overpriced by an order of magnitude? If that's the case they should be far more prevalent than they've been. Maybe they're only bought and sold within Portugal, but they sure as heck aren't making their way outside...

    Ok, I'll bite: I'll buy any and all proofs of this date (PF63 or better) that you can sell, at or near the prices you quote above. Heck, add 10 euros per coin so you make some money on the deal.

    [I guess I have a hard time believing that KM is *that* far off -- if it is, then these are a steal at $30-40 each, and I'll buy as many as you can find...]
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  • newsmannewsman Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭
    Great information, Jose! Muito obrigado!

    That coin was the third or fourth proof I've seen in the past few months from that seller. I thought about buying the first one, but passed on the rest because it just didn't seem realistic that a supposedly rare coin would show up for sale so often by the same person. image
  • FilamCoinsFilamCoins Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I guess I have a hard time believing that KM is *that* far off >>



    It's often true. For Philippines, KM prices for modern coinage is much too high and for USPI way, way too low. Always best to do a little research on the country's current numismatic market situation before buying. If you can't travel there, contact some local coin clubs or dealers. Most will have somebody who can speak English. This is especially important if you are in any way an investor, rather than a pure collector (and most of us are to some degree). Nobody wants the value of their coins to be less 30 years from now.
  • josemartinsjosemartins Posts: 88 ✭✭


    << <i>

    So you're saying that Krause is overpriced by an order of magnitude? If that's the case they should be far more prevalent than they've been. Maybe they're only bought and sold within Portugal, but they sure as heck aren't making their way outside...

    Ok, I'll bite: I'll buy any and all proofs of this date (PF63 or better) that you can sell, at or near the prices you quote above. Heck, add 10 euros per coin so you make some money on the deal.

    [I guess I have a hard time believing that KM is *that* far off -- if it is, then these are a steal at $30-40 each, and I'll buy as many as you can find...] >>



    Yes, that magnitude, it can happen the other way around, i've no problem giving 4x or 5x the KM value for certain Portuguese coins (and i would be very happy to receive Portuguese coins sales lists via PM - sneaky "would buy" insert... image )
    I don't want to take at chance at playing the slab/grade game, if i send you one and if the coin graded PF62, i would be.... image
    If you want Portuguese coins just for investment at least look at:
    http://moedasorg.planetaclix.pt/catalogo/catindex.htm
    and i would avoid so called early "proof" coins from Portugal, the following one cost me 5 Euro (and its not a catalogued coin...):
    image
    image

    And FilamCoins is 100% on the spot.

    P.S.: Hummm, perhaps i'm talking too much and this thread is just a conspiracy to make me give out confidential information... imageimageimage
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  • secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭


    << <i> Hummm, perhaps i'm talking too much and this thread is just a conspiracy to make me give out confidential information... >>



    I hope you're kidding! image As if we're all gonna run out and start buying early Portuguese proofs and cause the prices to go up.
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭✭
    So what if coinpictures overpaid for this pretty coin? It's primarily a hobby, not an investment. And this thread will be useful for all of us in our future impulse purchases.

    The thing is that the coins I've seen from coinpictures have some real investment potential, maybe not this one, but the Romanian proofs are just one example, in a decade from now and when they will be using euros, these coins will have multiplied their value, I've seen it before, I have no doubt that it will happen again.

    As for Krause, as long as he insists consulting experts of each country residing in the US, this situation with overpriced common modern coins and underpriced rarities is not about to change, the reasons are the same for all.
    Dimitri



    myEbay



    DPOTD 3
  • coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭
    Well, I may have overpaid for the coin by Portuguese standards, but for the U.S. and online, only time will tell... if and when I attempt to sell it I'll have my answer; not likely in the foreseeable future. By definition at least one other person was willing to pay within a few bucks of what I paid.

    As another poster mentioned, this seller appears to have had this type several times in the last 6 months, but I'm wondering if it's just the same coin and he's been attempting to sell it multiple times. I watched this exact coin on at least 2 prior occasions, and each time he had the starting bid over $190, hence no takers. This is the first time he started low and let competition determine the ending price. Odd how it ended up within $1.50 of my max bid...I had hoped to get it for less. *shrug*

    Jose has been very helpful and has offered to help me obtain some of these and other Portuguese pieces at "Portuguese market" rates. I wasn't kidding when I said that I would buy any and all proofs of this date for the prices that he quoted. If they are indeed obtainable for $30-40, I think there is vast potential for them outside of Portugal. You simply do not find 19th century proofs from any country in that price range. Even if there's no great demand now, I'm more than happy to sock a few away and sit on them for 10-20 years. Eventually the demand will come.

    The other thing is that if/when I decide to sell, the majority of a U.S. audience will probably be using Krause as a barometer anyway... image

    Worst case scenario is that I have an attractive no-problem coin that remains in my collection... what a bummer. image
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