Wisconsin Leaf Error- how to promote Sales 101
TwoSides2aCoin
Posts: 44,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
Simple thread.
My view is that there was a cover-up in the Wisconsin Leaf Error/ varieties
.... a conspiracy within the mint/govt....and here is my theory:
entertaining a thought
The reports I've read just do not add up. My thinking is that two variety dies were made.
The first die was installed by a die setter, unbeknownst to him that it was a variety. The machine began . After a certain amount of strikings, the guy goes on break, the die setter is directed to change the die, so he does. The operator comes back from lunch, starts the machine up and voila : The rare "high leaf" was born and he never even saw it. (and the high leaf die, ultimately destroyed). It was simple, cut and dried, and can go down in history as a "numismatic oddity", unexplained. (hence, no report)
sneak in, sneak out
Then, the second one was supposed to slip out the same way, but...... the die setter put the die in, the machine operator found the error (extra low leaf) right away and shut down the machine and took his break. He covered his A$$.
Except when he went to lunch, the higher ups that really weren't there to see if quality control was up to snuff, rather under a directive from even higher up to help promote lagging statehood quarter sales, came and turned this guy's machine back on. ( okay there is my theory). The operator's own testament in the investigation states this.
That's as simple as I can figure this whole thing out.
Can someone help me finish this book ?
Opinions ?
Who would turn on a tagged machine with an obvious error ? Which employee has such power in the mint facility to turn on another guys machine during his tenure, especially a tagged one ? Why was the die destroyed on the second error if it was found ?. This just doesn't make sense.
Stuff will never add up to me.
There was no report on the high leaf error and there is no way to disprove the facts. The facts are, we will never know the truth. How does an error/variety, with precision artwork, get out of the mint without a report ?
Did a die gouge heal itself miraculously ? Is it possible to have an error like this occur then fix itself ? I don't think so. Do errors go unreported to the mint director ?
I smell a rat (he's hanging out by the cheese on the Wisconsin quarters).... does anyone have any ideas that could help shed light on the mysteries ?
I swear, sometimes it's easier finding a treasure than it is finding the truth.
My view is that there was a cover-up in the Wisconsin Leaf Error/ varieties
.... a conspiracy within the mint/govt....and here is my theory:
entertaining a thought
The reports I've read just do not add up. My thinking is that two variety dies were made.
The first die was installed by a die setter, unbeknownst to him that it was a variety. The machine began . After a certain amount of strikings, the guy goes on break, the die setter is directed to change the die, so he does. The operator comes back from lunch, starts the machine up and voila : The rare "high leaf" was born and he never even saw it. (and the high leaf die, ultimately destroyed). It was simple, cut and dried, and can go down in history as a "numismatic oddity", unexplained. (hence, no report)
sneak in, sneak out
Then, the second one was supposed to slip out the same way, but...... the die setter put the die in, the machine operator found the error (extra low leaf) right away and shut down the machine and took his break. He covered his A$$.
Except when he went to lunch, the higher ups that really weren't there to see if quality control was up to snuff, rather under a directive from even higher up to help promote lagging statehood quarter sales, came and turned this guy's machine back on. ( okay there is my theory). The operator's own testament in the investigation states this.
That's as simple as I can figure this whole thing out.
Can someone help me finish this book ?
Opinions ?
Who would turn on a tagged machine with an obvious error ? Which employee has such power in the mint facility to turn on another guys machine during his tenure, especially a tagged one ? Why was the die destroyed on the second error if it was found ?. This just doesn't make sense.
Stuff will never add up to me.
There was no report on the high leaf error and there is no way to disprove the facts. The facts are, we will never know the truth. How does an error/variety, with precision artwork, get out of the mint without a report ?
Did a die gouge heal itself miraculously ? Is it possible to have an error like this occur then fix itself ? I don't think so. Do errors go unreported to the mint director ?
I smell a rat (he's hanging out by the cheese on the Wisconsin quarters).... does anyone have any ideas that could help shed light on the mysteries ?
I swear, sometimes it's easier finding a treasure than it is finding the truth.
0
Comments
I don't think they have any idea what happened with the extra leaf quarters, but they went through the motions of investigating it, got next to no cooperation from the employees, and thought up a theory that could possibly explain it no matter how far-fetched. They investigate what happened with a particular die, months after the fact, and expect people to remember anything? Come on.
Personally, I think employees did it as a lark, but of course were not going to admit to it.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
It showed the movement from the lower to the upper or visa versa.........same shape...
Who exactly knows for sure?!?!?!?!?.............
He also says this:
<<Please Note: We do NOT buy or sell the Wisconsin Quarters with the so-called Extra Leaf or High & Low Leaf Varieties. In our opinion, these are minor die dents or gouges that are highly inflated in price at this time due to being promoted under misleading nicknames that suggest they are something more significant than they are.>>
I think this may be a shot at Rick. And I disagree with Ken.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Used inadvertanably...............(spelling)...........................................................
He is very knowledgeable about varieties and he has taught me a great deal about the minting process.
But I have to disagree with him on this one. They were intentionally done and it is not coincidence. Has anyone discovered a misplaced leaf anywhere else on the Wisconsin quarter or on any other SHQ for that matter? I don't think so.
I happen to believe it is an interesting error - the value of which will be determined by the marketplace.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
with a box of these new dies on a lark carved these leaves into two adjacent dies. He told at
least one person. These dies ended up in the same press but were discovered by the opera-
tor who destroyed the coins and tagged the machine. Someone else who knew about these
started up the machine.
The investigation may have led to the "designer" but there was no proof and the mint had
plausible deniability. They probably had no clue who started the press up and no interest in
firing the principle(s) involved so released the known facts with a possible cause.
It's possible that an individual could have pulled this off alone but I'd guess there would have
been a firing since records would inplicate the sole suspect.
Regards
Gary
I also agree, that the Mint's investigation (as disclosed publically) does not at all account for the the facts, particularly for the fact again there were two. It may be the Mint wanted to cover up how successful the ruse was. But it's hard to believe they internally would not have pursued the matter vigorously.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Morgan, modern sets, circulated Kennedys, and Wisconsin error leaf quarter Collector
First (and only - so far) Official "You Suck" Award from Russ 2/9/07
<< <i>I don't give them enough credit to successfully organize a cover-up. >>
oh man if jim didn't hit that right on the head
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>I took statistics in college, and granted I don't remember a whole lot, I do know that the statistical probability of this type of die gouge happening twice on the same series of coin in places that make them look like leaves and not a die crack, gouge - whatever AND not being caught in a timely manner by quality control so that they can be rounded up and destroyed is astronomically small. If they ARE truly die errors, then there still should be a premium on them just because the likelihood of them occuring like that in the first place is so remotely, absurdly small!!!! JMHO!! >>
It's not only the small chance of these being done accidently, it's also the fact that both
dies had to have been in the same press! If some event occurred to the press that would
cause this damage then surely there would have been other similar gouges in other places
of the struck coin found with these. There were not only two of these but only two and
both even appear to display at least some small artistic talent.
While it's not impossible these happened by pure accident, it does seem highly improbable.
It is very clear that these are leaves and they were engraved into 2 different working dies. By who, when, and why are mystery's. But the fact is these are intentional alterations.
I have been searching and collecting Moderns for more than 10 years and have searched hundreds of thousands of coins. I have NEVER seen anyhting that looked anything like a leaf, randomly gouged into any coin. You would think if this kind of gouge was so common as to randomly show up growing out of the side of corn, that I would have seen something like it before.
<< <i>It is very clear that these are leaves and they were engraved into 2 different working dies. By who, when, and why are mystery's. But the fact is these are intentional alterations. >>
Yep; all one has to do is look at one of these in hand under a loupe to see that the leaf/husk was intentional. Its too good to be otherwise.
After having heard what this person had to say, I have from that day on felt that these Extra Leaf Varieties were the true act of a Denver Mint employee and possibly with the encouragement of the officials so as to spur lagging sales and collector interest in the Statehood Quarter Program. My opinion of the rather outspoken Error Coin Experts in MI and NY is less than flattering !! Had the quarters turned up in their backyard, then I think that their opinions would be much more positive !! Actual, any press that states that the quarters are worthless and not worthy of consideration helps dealers like me to still buy an occassional Extra Leaf Quarter at less than Ebay market price !!
I commend Bob Ford and Rick Snow for introducing these truly rare coins to the coin collectin world and in fact the entire world !! There have been less than 10,000 Extra Leaf Quarters graded by the top three Grading Services in the last 13-14 months !! The market for these rare quarters has now expanded beyound the Ebay Auctions. Last Saturday, a NGC MS 67 Extra Low Leaf State Quarter sold for $4750.
I will be suprised if the total number of both varieties in years to come reach 20,000 !! That is a very low mintage for both scarce coins combined !!
<< <i>Somebody involved has bags(boxes) of these saved for retirement from the mint, probably someone who knows people in Arizona. Thats my conspiracy theory
It's very difficult to get coins out of the mint and gets moreso all the time. The success
stories are legendary, though. It would almost certainly be impossible to direct the minted
coins to a particular location but they could have let them go out randomly while taking home
anything they could carry.
<< <i>After having heard what this person had to say, I have from that day on felt that these Extra Leaf Varieties were the true act of a Denver Mint employee and possibly with the encouragement of the officials so as to spur lagging sales and collector interest in the Statehood Quarter Program. >>
If these weren't all made on the same press at the same time then I'd be inclined to believe
that there was a lot more going on then a small informal conspiracy. It seems improbable that
this was in any way official though. The risk is simply too great and the potential reward too
small.
Welcome to the site.
It's a DIE GOUGE!
The piece of metal responsible for it dislodged from the first die, landed on the second, ruined it, and disappeared into obscurity.
Someone here previously posted overlays of the two damaged dies and they (the piece of metal involved) matched EXACTLY!
I will say no more........I have no link to the original post......wish I did.
Edited to add.........this should not and it is not my intention to discourage you from seeking this variety.
Don't forget, the 1937-D 3-leg Buffalo Nickel is no more than a abraided and polished die. It caught the fancy of a generation in the 1930's and became popular due to it's placement and hype.
Pete
Thanks for that assessment. We may never know the truth on these quarters, unless a mint employee writes a book.
Also, from your story... the possiblity exists that someone has a mint sewn bag full of them from 11/04. I guess I should check the dates on my unopened Wisconsin mint orders, huh ?
I haven't heard of anyone finding them in mint rolls or bags as of yet, though.
and thank you all for your input on these.... I find the story quite intriquing, and the subsequent mint report, laughable.
<< <i>I wish you would all stop beating yourselves up over this.
It's a DIE GOUGE!
The piece of metal responsible for it dislodged from the first die, landed on the second, ruined it, and disappeared into obscurity.
Someone here previously posted overlays of the two damaged dies and they (the piece of metal involved) matched EXACTLY!
I will say no more........I have no link to the original post......wish I did.
Edited to add.........this should not and it is not my intention to discourage you from seeking this variety.
Don't forget, the 1937-D 3-leg Buffalo Nickel is no more than a abraided and polished die. It caught the fancy of a generation in the 1930's and became popular due to it's placement and hype.
Pete >>
<< <i>I wish you would all stop beating yourselves up over this.
It's a DIE GOUGE!
The piece of metal responsible for it dislodged from the first die, landed on the second, ruined it, and disappeared into obscurity.
Someone here previously posted overlays of the two damaged dies and they (the piece of metal involved) matched EXACTLY!
I will say no more........I have no link to the original post......wish I did.
Edited to add.........this should not and it is not my intention to discourage you from seeking this variety.
Don't forget, the 1937-D 3-leg Buffalo Nickel is no more than a abraided and polished die. It caught the fancy of a generation in the 1930's and became popular due to it's placement and hype.
Pete >>
<< <i>I am happy that I bought a PCGS MS64 low leaf for $150 when they came out. >>
I bought 2 @ $125.
<< <i>No. A piece of metal can't cause a gouge as you state. Long story, don't have the time or inclination to explain it right now. >>
Does it have anything to do with both metals being of equal hardness as would be the case here?
What have the price of these things done during the last decade?
Isn’t there an extra leaf dime or something from the same mint and year that looks similar
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
2004-D 'curved ear ring' dime
Ebay shows that certified 66's are selling for $150
This demonstrates quite well that there are fewer serious collectors of states quarters than the mintage (<14,000)!!!
The implications are significant.
The forum needs to have a symbol of some sort by the title that appears for a say a day or two whenever a thread more than six months dormant gets resurrected.
I don't care what the cause of this great error is as it is great coin to own. I own both varieties and would not dream of selling any at this point.
Great might be a stretch but naked eye 21st Cen varieties are rare on coins let along important coins like quarters. They have a place in long term collections as the 2nd most important error in the state series after the DC quarter.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
By any likely chain of events by which they arose they are "types" and, as such, belong in any states quarter collection.
Eventually all the hoards will be dissipated and there'll be 14,000 serious states quarter collectors (not all can afford nor even desire each type)(some will have multiples).
There is still interest in these intentional State Quarter Type Coins. The Ebay prices have drifted down over the last several years. but I do not notice a flood of them entering the marketplace. Most speculators are long gone. A reputable coin dealer told me that the Denver Mint actually destroyed a quantity of WI D state quarters. The PCGS/NGC pops are staying rather constant over the last 10 years.
Is the low interest in these coins due to overall interest in coins going south or the fact that the economy went south over the last few years and will it improve once collectors have more money in their pockets.
This remains a fascinating phenomenon and story. There have been very few items of interest in pocket change in recent years, unlike all the overdates, double dies and die abrasions of the old days. The face and style of coin collecting have changed over time, IMO at least in part on that account.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Agree with this for sure.
Change the entire title color to Red or Green....something different.
R.I.P Son 1986>2020
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