U.S. vs rest of the World. 1732 farthing.

Teg

Hi,
Below is a 1732 British farthing.
Conventional wisdom has it that U.S. collectors, and Brit (+rest of world) see this coin differently.

It has some major die breaks -
U.S. - good - makes the coin more interesting + value.
ROTW, bad - coin is not perfect - value.

Do you agree?

While we are looking at the coin how would you grade it - and why?



This is an exceptionally rare coin in any good grade.

Teg

ajaan

The die breaks bother me not at all. VF?

coinpictures

Agree on the VF. Am squarely in the U.S. camp on die breaks, doubled dies, and other anomalies. To me they add character to a coin.

Then again I also like certain types of woodgrain toning so I'm weird.

Aethelred

From my POV the coin looks like a VF. The die breaks would have no impact on what I would pay for the coin, but I sort of like them.

coinkat

I never claimed to be the copper expert. I will disagree with the VF grade and say EF based on red and lustre. And while I am not an expert with copper, I think the high relief of George II coinage is not being considered here. I will admit that I am saddened to read that it seems this is a rest of the world v. USA matter in terms of grading. As for the die breaks... very cool and it really adds to the overall look and the basis for assigning a HIGHER grade in light of die fatgue.

MacCrimmon

Firstly, if the London mintmaster and/or coiner were satisfied with striking coinage on a near fatally broken die, why should the collector cast it aside. As to copper, you'll never collect much if you truly seek perfection of the strike and surfaces....anomalies abound.

Presuming the colour is original, I would proffer that the coin was indeed weakly struck intentionally, and hence there is not that much in the way of true wear. Given the look and my assumption, I'd bet it would grade out as at least XF45 in Slabsville.

Even an honest EAC assessment would allow for XF40 sharpness (accounting for the bluntness), and a net grade of VF35 (allowing for the verdigris in the crevasses of the breaks), IMO (again, assuming the colour is legit).

UK-wise, I'd say it's a comfortable gVF to abtEF providing there's not such a fatal exception to the die breaks as Teg mentions.


That said, I like the look of this copper. It looks very original

ajaan

I originally thought VF/EF but decided to be very conservative. Nice coin no matter what.

farthing

I will agree with the mouse, gVF or nEF.

As far as the die breaks are concerned, if the only die break(s) were the ones visible on the obverse then I would likely pass on the coin - it's the breaks on the reverse that make the coin interesting. They help explain the strike quality of the obverse.

1jester

Very little wear on the coin--XF45.

Teg

Thanks for the comments. I bought the coin several years ago as VF lustre. Very hard to grade correctly.
If it lost the colour it would struggle to make VF, with the colour it could make EF - and colour is not supposed
to influence grade in that way!
I am happy that some UK dealers look down on this sort of coin - I don't and I got it for a very good price.

Farthing mentioned the obverse die break, this is what interests me about these coins, the insights they
can give us about the minting process (and I love GII 1st head copper).

Many people assume that a coin like this must have suffered from progressive die wear to get to this state.
Indeed some coppers will show a small break getting bigger.

However I'm starting to think that many of the breaks occur almost at the first use of the die. Some dies
broke at the first strike, other perhaps less damaged - mend-able.



Is this the same die set after re-work?

Teg

HenriIII

Nice coin

1jester

Teg, I don't know about the obverse, but I think the reverse is clearly a different die.

SYRACUSIAN

Lovely colour Teg, and die breaks don't bother me at all either. Looks like a very pretty gVF, most likely a 45 in the US scale.

coinkat

I like it

lordmarcovan

I agree with the first three posts.

Conder101

Some (possibly many) of the dies break BEFORE the first stroke having failed and cracked during the strain of the hardening process. Dies were expensive and time consuming to make. You didn't just discard them because they cracked.