Bowers & Marena Auctions Not Only ENCOURAGES Shill Bidding They Bid You Up To Your Max On Their
RBinTex
Posts: 4,328 ✭
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Some excerpts:
"Bidders may include consignors who may bid and purchase lot(s) in the Auction Sale consigned by the consignor or by other consignors pursuant to their consignment agreement with Bowers ("Consignor" or "Consignors"). A Consignor that bids on their own lots in the Auction Sale may pay a different fee than the buyer's premium charged to all other buyers.
Bowers reserves the right to include in any auction sale its own material as well as material from affiliated or related companies, principals, officers or employees. Bowers may have direct or indirect interests in any of the lots in the auction and may collect commissions...
Bowers may bid for its own account at any auction. Bowers may have information about any lot that is not known publicly, and Bowers reserves the right to use such information, in a manner determined solely by Bowers and for the benefit of Bowers, without disclosing such information in the catalog, catalog description or at the auction."
...and may have access to information concerning the lot(s) that is not otherwise available to the public. Any claimed conflict of interest or claimed competitive advantage resulting therefrom is expressly waived by all participants in the Auction Sale..."
So they may be selling their own stuff as well AND know my max bid! 5 lots won the last 2 days & every one at my max!!!
What a scam! 
Read some more of their terms. They're VERY interesting!
Edited To Update 4/7/06:
If you had won THIS lot would you be surprised/upset that the variety (FS-007.7) was NOT noted on the holder?
Not only do they not show a picture of the slab insert but they also fail to mention anywhwere in the description that the variety noted in the title was
NOT noted on the insert by NGC.
Do you think that is wrong?
Should the buyer assume that if a seller/auctioneer doesn't show a pic of the slab insert AND asserts a variety, then the default belief is that the seller/auctioneer is making an attribution assertion that IS NOT on the holder or should the default belief (& responsibility of the seller/auctioneer be to make mention if the variety is not noted on the slab) be that unless the seller says the variety is not noted on the slab then the buyer should be able to assume it is?
Some excerpts:
"Bidders may include consignors who may bid and purchase lot(s) in the Auction Sale consigned by the consignor or by other consignors pursuant to their consignment agreement with Bowers ("Consignor" or "Consignors"). A Consignor that bids on their own lots in the Auction Sale may pay a different fee than the buyer's premium charged to all other buyers.
Bowers reserves the right to include in any auction sale its own material as well as material from affiliated or related companies, principals, officers or employees. Bowers may have direct or indirect interests in any of the lots in the auction and may collect commissions...
Bowers may bid for its own account at any auction. Bowers may have information about any lot that is not known publicly, and Bowers reserves the right to use such information, in a manner determined solely by Bowers and for the benefit of Bowers, without disclosing such information in the catalog, catalog description or at the auction."
...and may have access to information concerning the lot(s) that is not otherwise available to the public. Any claimed conflict of interest or claimed competitive advantage resulting therefrom is expressly waived by all participants in the Auction Sale..."
So they may be selling their own stuff as well AND know my max bid! 5 lots won the last 2 days & every one at my max!!!
What a scam! Read some more of their terms. They're VERY interesting!
Edited To Update 4/7/06:
If you had won THIS lot would you be surprised/upset that the variety (FS-007.7) was NOT noted on the holder?
Not only do they not show a picture of the slab insert but they also fail to mention anywhwere in the description that the variety noted in the title was
NOT noted on the insert by NGC.
Do you think that is wrong?
Should the buyer assume that if a seller/auctioneer doesn't show a pic of the slab insert AND asserts a variety, then the default belief is that the seller/auctioneer is making an attribution assertion that IS NOT on the holder or should the default belief (& responsibility of the seller/auctioneer be to make mention if the variety is not noted on the slab) be that unless the seller says the variety is not noted on the slab then the buyer should be able to assume it is?
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Comments
With no disrespect intended, I would have thought good and hard before I sold my good name and associated industry reputation like that. Hope the $$$ was well worth it.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Then again, it always helps to be the very last lot of the B&M sale!
at the hyatt brad karloff the guy who writes the article in coin world about early bust silver coinage was the auctioneer and steve deeds was there and he looks great also lost weight as i have to do and i had a great talk to both for about half an hour after the auction
now i have not been in the coin game really very much nor do i ever go to shows ans i think this is one of the few auctions i have been to and also i really do n ot know many people and i am really not as professional or as saavy as the professional dealers there who have to make a living at this
but i can tell you this from my observations THERE WAS NO SHILL BIDDING i did not see any at all
I didn't feel there was any funny business going on. imo
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
They are saying
#1 point blank, it's OK if the consignors shill bids their lots &
#2 they may be acting as a principal to a transaction while at the same time having a duty to safeguard your "secret" max bid but are saying that they can & will use THAT info which is NOT available to the public (IN THIS, a PUBLIC auction) to their advantage.
They're basically telling you point blank that they plan on screwing the buyer - i.e. taking as much money out of their pocket as possible - from jump street!
Is this not troubling to anyone else REGARDLESS of your possible personal experiences? You might have gotten screwed & not even have known it.
Edited to add: p.s. any lots won BELOW the bidders max could be explained by those lots NOT being owned by the auctioneer or one of it's affiliates - i.e. a real arms length bona fide consignor. Someone the auctioneeer would have a minimal interest (i.e. just 15% instead of 115%) in running up.
Well, that's how the auction world works. Sometimes dealers will consign a coin, place internet bids on it, and then get on the floor and bid with their paddle based on what is going on in the room.
As always, you're best defense is to evaluate the coin and decide what you are willing to pay for it. Set your bid and see if you win or not. It's too dangerous to go nuclear hoping the underbidder (or whomever) will be reasonable and you will get it for one increment more than them.
That's why I like sniping on Ebay!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
What probably happens more often are buyers teaming up on coins to limit the competition on them. Ex. "You stay off the coin that I want more and I'll stay off the coin you want more." I'm sure there have been cases where 6 to 10 bidders are all on the same coin but decide to split it up for fear of running each other up. A sure profit is better than a risky one.
roadrunner
<< <i>What probably happens more often are buyers teaming up on coins to limit the competition on them. Ex. "You stay off the coin that I want more and I'll stay off the coin you want more." I'm sure there have been cases where 6 to 10 bidders are all on the same coin but decide to split it up for fear of running each other up. A sure profit is better than a risky one. >>
And that IS illegal. So there is quite probably more illegal activity taking place among the bidders than by the auction house.
Not only do they not show a picture of the slab insert but they also fail to mention anywhwere in the description that the variety noted in the title was
NOT noted on the insert by NGC.
Do you think that is wrong?
Should the buyer assume that if a seller/auctioneer doesn't show a pic of the slab insert AND asserts a variety, then the default belief is that the seller/auctioneer is making an attribution assertion that IS NOT on the holder or should the default belief (& responsibility of the seller/auctioneer be to make mention if the variety is not noted on the slab) be that unless the seller says the variety is not noted on the slab then the buyer should be able to assume it is?
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
<< <i>If you had won <a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/previous_lot_detail.chtml?catid=494&cats=0&AuctID=12950&passkey=&orderby=Lotnumber+Asc&showdesc=no&extralink=no&perpage=50&psearch=&searchbidderid=&searchtext=&LotNo=112" target=blank><STRONG>THIS</STRONG></A> lot would you be surprised/upset that the variety (FS-007.7) was NOT noted on the holder?
Not only do they not show a picture of the slab insert but they also fail to mention anywhwere in the description that the variety noted in the title was
NOT noted on the insert by NGC.
Do you think that is wrong?
Should the buyer assume that if a seller/auctioneer doesn't show a pic of the slab insert AND asserts a variety, then the default belief is that the seller/auctioneer is making an attribution assertion that IS NOT on the holder or should the default belief (& responsibility of the seller/auctioneer be to make mention if the variety is not noted on the slab) be that unless the seller says the variety is not noted on the slab then the buyer should be able to assume it is? >>
It would be nice if the auction description mentioned whenever the noted variety is NOT listed on the holder insert. I agree it is always best to be able to view the holder, especially when trying to determine how accurate the picture colors are with respect to the holder colors. If I have any question about the variety being listed on the holder, I call or email the auction house.
NGC coins described as "PL" are often sold without the "PL" on the insert, especially on Ebay.
<< <i>Edited To Update 4/7/06:
If you had won THIS lot would you be surprised/upset that the variety (FS-007.7) was NOT noted on the holder? >>
No, not surprised or upset.
<< <i>Not only do they not show a picture of the slab insert but they also fail to mention anywhwere in the description that the variety noted in the title was
NOT noted on the insert by NGC.
Do you think that is wrong? >>
No I don't think that it is wrong. It would be nice if they mentioned that the attribution isn't on the slab but not really important.
<< <i>Should the buyer assume that if a seller/auctioneer doesn't show a pic of the slab insert AND asserts a variety, then the default belief is that the seller/auctioneer is making an attribution assertion that IS NOT on the holder or should the default belief (& responsibility of the seller/auctioneer be to make mention if the variety is not noted on the slab) be that unless the seller says the variety is not noted on the slab then the buyer should be able to assume it is? >>
I'm not sure I can get my mind around that sentence. Basically, if I see an attribution in an auction I just assume it to be part of the description. I wouldn't care if it was on the slab or just part of the auction houses description. All I would care is that when the coin arrived the attribution was correct. If not then the coin should be returnable because it had a MAJOR mis-description. Unless of course you have had a chance to inspect the lot in person.
I'll stick to collecting widgets, that way I won't have to worry about ever having to play "bend me over please".
Herb
<< <i>Here we go again..................one more reason I don't play ball with the leeches.
I'll stick to collecting widgets, that way I won't have to worry about ever having to play "bend me over please".
Herb >>