Capped Bust Half Dime with Full Cud
Barndog
Posts: 20,502 ✭✭✭✭✭
I think even collectors of other series can appreciate this one. You are looking at photographs of an 1832 LM-10.4/V-13. I have it on good authority that about four specimens are known in this terminal die state. The cud is one of the larger in the bust half dime series. Although this coin is not as nice as the plate coin in the Logan-McCloskey half dime text (which may be owned by another forum member), it is a later die state and nicer looking (IMHO) than the Reiver coin which sold at the January Heritage sale. Another advantage this coin has over the Reiver coin is that it cost $20 less than the Reiver coin! The Reiver coin had a retained cud, but not "full" cud. One of the nice features of this coin is that the date could not be struck fully due to the massive reverse cud. My photography skills are lacking, so I have provided two photos of the obverse and two photos of the reverse in hopes that some details might be better in one photo compared to another. The obverse of the coin has been cleaned, but not harshly. The reverse looks pretty nice. One thing you should be able to do by observing the photos is to pick out some of the die cracks evident on earlier die states. Most notably, you should be able to see where there were two die cracks under the A in AMERICA that go to the M in UNUM in the scroll. I hope you enjoy this stuff as much as I do.
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Rob
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and
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42/92
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Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
Cool coin. Since it looks like a die clash below the UN of "E PLURIBUS UNUM", was it that clash that caused the die breakage?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>What a cud! I'm surprized that there is that much rim detail left with a cud that large.Very cool.
I second this, what is a CUD, what causes it?
<< <i>
<< <i>What a cud! I'm surprized that there is that much rim detail left with a cud that large.Very cool.
I second this, what is a CUD, what causes it? >>
A cud happens when part of the die breaks away. Usually die cracks form first, then the segment of the die breaks away resulting in a "big metal blob" on the coin. You can see the BMB on the upper reverse of the coin shown.
<< <i>I second this, what is a CUD, what causes it? >>
From an article written in the February 2005 John Reich Journal by Stephen A. Crain and Dr. Glenn Peterson: A "full cud" is the area on a struck coin outlined by a die break, where the broken piece of the die has completely separated from the rest of the die, and therefore imparts no impression on the struck coin.
This coin and it's die state are a good demonstrator of a rarity within a non-rarity. The die marriage itself is but an R3 coin, not rare by any standards. However! This particular die state, a very late and terminal die state is an extreme rarity. That cud is MAGNIFICENT! You mention that another forum member just might own the Logan-McCloskey plate coin of this die state and I do believe you are totally correct, although it is not me. I should be so lucky LOL
You can bet your bottom dollar that some of us out here enjoy this stuff a whole lot! The fact that it's an 1832 is just icing on the cake (I'm completely and irrationally obsessed with 1832 as some of you may know). Congratulations on a great pick up. Folks, picking up this coin was no small deal as I watched the auction close and our very own Barndog was up against at least 3 of the best Half Dime guys in the business and came out victorious. Thumbs up man!
I'll leave the technical and nitty gritty info for MrHalfDime to post about as he is much more articulate and thourough than I. But I did beat you to the thread Mr.HD
Edited to add: I love George's response. That kid is a true half dime guy
How much premium this variety has?
<< <i>How much premium this variety has? >>
Others may address it, but here's my thoughts on the subject:
The Jules Reiver coin was not as late of a die state as this coin, so all of the letters were visible and the date was not hindered either. The Reiver sale did not have the eye appeal of this coin...so I assessed from the photos on Heritage's site and my agent told me after personally inspecting the coin. The Reiver coin sold for $920. A "normal" AU bust half dime is fairly priced between $150-$300, in my experience. I use the wide range to take into account surface quality, strike, toning, a past history of dipping, etc (like any other coin collector would do). So if we say an AU coin is a $225 coin, you can say that four times normal would be the premium here. There are other examples of coins found rarely with full cuds selling for many more multiples of "normal" price. One need only look at the Reiver signature auction to see more. The Logan plate coin, graded MS-63, for this die remarriage (sporting the full cud like my coin has) sold for about $1,700 -- a bargain at the time as it was about 3 to 3.5 times the "normal" price for an MS-63 at the time (2002).
<< <i>The term "full cud" is a neologism that is not used in the error hobby. It's the same as a "cud". Your coin has a retained cud. The die fragment, while fully separated from the main portion of the die neck, was held in place by the collar. The fragment sank in below the level of the die face, which left the letters sitting on a plateau of metal. Where the letters fade out on the left is where the fragment was so far below the plane of the die face that the coin metal could not reach it. >>
And I think that's the icing on the icing of the cake. Not only a scarce retained cud, you still see some of the letters. Way cool!
That is one spectacular cud, easily the largest cud in the Capped Bust half dime series. This is the first time I have really seen this specific coin, as the image that was posted on eBay when we all bid on it left much to be desired. I must agree with ErrorMaven, however, that your coin exhibits a 'retained' cud. As he states, the portion of the reverse die above the scroll, through the letters TES OF A, was still present within the collar when this coin was struck, although that section of the die had 'sunk' so that the plane of the field had shifted, making some/most of the letters weak. The Logan/ McCloskey plate coin, which I am privileged to own, exhibits a 'full' cud (please excuse the terminology, ErrorMaven), where that section of the die had fully separated, and dropped out, leaving no impression on the struck coin. I also have (as I told you in a PM the other day) an MS-63 example that is slightly earlier than your coin, where the same area within TES OF A was severely shattered, showing a spider web of die cracks in that same area, but was not yet separated at the rim, so the plane of the field had not shifted; therefore, no 'cud'.
It is interesting to learn, when conducting die state studies involving cuds, how some cuds occur suddenly, almost with one single strike of the dies, while others occur slowly, with gradual deterioration of the dies progressing slowly over many successive strikes. This particular cud was apparently one of the latter, which might indicate that there could be more examples out there to be discovered.
As Cladiator pointed out, the die marriage for your coin, overall, is only an R3, but this marriage contains four re-marriages, and even for the latest re-marriage (LM-10.4), not all examples exhibit the cud. To my knowledge, only four examples of the 1832 LM-10.4 have been reported with a cud (retained or full; again, my apologies, ErrorMaven), making it an R7. No matter what the rarity, however, it is one spectacular coin. Cuds such as this, in the Capped Bust half dime series, have become enormously popular lately, due to their "coolness" factor, and to the scarcity/rarity. That is reassuring to me, after stretching so far to purchase a few of Jules Reiver's spectacular Capped Bust half dime cuds in his recent auction.
Some day soon we need to put our examples side-by-side for comparison. Keep up the good work.
We can invite George to join us when we conduct the side-by-side comparison, but he will need to bring a few extra pairs of shorts.
<< <i>The term "full cud" is a neologism that is not used in the error hobby. It's the same as a "cud". Your coin has a retained cud. The die fragment, while fully separated from the main portion of the die neck, was held in place by the collar. The fragment sank in below the level of the die face, which left the letters sitting on a plateau of metal. Where the letters fade out on the left is where the fragment was so far below the plane of the die face that the coin metal could not reach it. >>
I was going to bring this up... the only part where it may be a complete cud, is towards the left side... only way I can see of really telling this, is by examining earlier die states to see if the cracks match up to the areas where no design details are visible... then it could possibly be a complete cud where the piece of the die actually fell away
42/92
<< <i>Some day soon we need to put our examples side-by-side for comparison. >>
<< <i>We can invite George to join us when we conduct the side-by-side comparison, but he will need to bring a few extra pairs of shorts >>
ANA Denver might be a good opportunity for comparison of select coins with cuds!