Consistency of PSA grades?

gameusedhoop

We all know that grading is subjective, but what % of changed grades are acceptable upon resubmission of the same cards? There is a back story to follow in the coming days, but we'll let the poll run for a while.

Boopotts

Hi Steve,

I'm not sure I understand how the poll is structured? But I would say that in my experience slightly fewer than 10% of PSA cards will change holders if cracked and resubmitted.

gameusedhoop

Simple poll, you get a bunch of cards back from PSA, are unhappy with the grades, crack them and resubmit them. What % would you expect to change up or down.....As I stated, there is a back story to follow with some solid #'s.

yawie99

I don't know if the poll feature is working properly right now, but I tried going with 20 percent. I think of the PSA grading scale as a series of overlapping normal distribution curves. The majority of 7's, for example, will look pretty similar, but at the low end of the 7 curve are cards that probably belong in PSA 6 holders while at the high end are cards that could probably pass as 8's. So basically, I'm willing to accept 10 percent leeway at each end of the spectrum for a given grade.

I'd love to know what the actual percentage is, though. I always thought it would be great to take like 1,000 cards of a given grade, representing all segments of the hobby, and crack and resubmit them to see what happens. I'd also like to see the consistency percentage for each grade level. My guess is that grading reliability is lower for high-grade cards than it is for low-grade cards.

zef204

<< <i>Simple poll, you get a bunch of cards back from PSA, are unhappy with the grades, crack them and resubmit them. What % would you expect to change.....As I stated, there is a back story to follow with some solid #'s. >>


I just got about 50 cards I am dissapointed with the grades. I am fairly certain that 25 of these 50 would change grades upon resubmitting.

I just got hosed on a huge order. PSA still has no consistency whatsoever on 1977 Topps Mexicans.

wolfbear

It depends.
Say you have 1,000 PSA graded cards.

If you select 100 of them totally at random,
and crack and resubmit them I'd guess about 10 % would bump up and about 10 % would bump down. So, 20 %.

On the other hand, if you go through the same 1,000 cards and cherry pick the best 100,
and crack and resubmit I'd guess about half of them would bump up. So, in this case my answer would be 50 %.

frankhardy

I picked 20%. Grading subjective to an extent. Grader to grader will vary and even graders will vary with himself every once in a while. I have seen 6's jump to 8's before.

lawnmowerman

<< <i>I picked 20%. Grading subjective to an extent. Grader to grader will vary and even graders will vary with himself every once in a while. I have seen 6's jump to 8's before. >>

ditto

envoy98

I picked 10%. I have 6 cards I'm going to do this very same thing with tomorrow. I'll let you all know the results when they're in.

TheThrill22

20%, I too have seen 6's go to 8's.

pandrews

the last 2 submissions of mine have been kinda harsh.. and it's the same stuff ive always submitted.. i think on a different day my results couldve been better..

SDavid

I'd say it's closer to 10%, but I'm curious how others' answers would change if the cards were resubmitted repeatedly. In other words, say each card was resubmitted 5 times or until it changed. At the end of the 5 rounds, what percentage of the cards would have their original grade?

Boopotts

Like Woflbear said. I'd go with about 40% on the true sliders, and just under 10% on any random slabbed card.

Knuckles

pollio isn't working.. at any rate 10%

zef204

<< <i>Like Woflbear said. I'd go with about 40% on the true sliders, and just under 10% on any random slabbed card. >>

I think this is perfectly stated.

Tap4black

I went 35% and I'll back my numbers up with a recrack submission from about a month ago when I can get to the home computer. That list had 2 cards climb from PSA 8 all the way to 10's! My sub was done with a handpicked 25 cards that I felt we're undergraded out of a large submission from around Christmas time.

Personally, I can understand 1 grade movements on higher grade pieces (8 and higher) and could see where a lower grade card might bump 2 should a small flaw be missed by the graders the second time around. Going from 8 to 10 though is outrageous in my book.

aro13

What wolfbear said.

RipublicaninMass

What if you cracked them, and sent them in with a huge submission with more room for error, wither that or submitted them with a larger dealer thet had a larger submission

Boopotts

<< <i>What if you cracked them, and sent them in with a huge submission with more room for error, wither that or submitted them with a larger dealer thet had a larger submission >>



The only possible variable that a large submission would introduce would be the possibility that the grader would spend less time with each card, which could create more inconsistencies. But I don't see how that relates to 'room for error', since in theory-- i.e, assuming the same time is spent with each card regardless of submission size-- the results of 1 five hundred card submission and 500 one card submissions should be the same, assuming the same cards in each submission.

BigRedMachine

Does PSA keep a record of cards that are "machine stamped" with a number???

i.e., if I send in a card that is "numbered" 0812/1299 and it comes back a 9 and I thought it is a 10, is resubmitting a possibility???

Just curious. Many rookies and inserts these days have some sort of "limited" print run and would be easy to track as previously graded,
but I didn't know if they actually were by the grading companies.

shawn

daneyb

Well I would bet there is some graders who are alot more tight on thier grading and some who are alot more flexable. I sent in a 6 card submission and 2 were not graded because of trimming. I then sent in 105 included the 2 supposedly trimmed cards and they all came back with grades. I was actually worried about how many were not going to get graded. I would like to choose my last grader to do all my submissions.

downgoesfrazier

Consistency of PSA grades?




good one.

Actually, I think there are money...er, uh, mAny factors that can influence consistency with PSA. They include the submitter, grader and the grades the card falls between. For instance a 10 would be a 9 or vice versa WAY more than 50% of the time. A card between an 8 and a 9 or 7 & 8 would change less frequently as the grade is less subjective and the flaws more visible. For the record, I've had 8's make the jump to 10 quite a few times...seven to date. I've only gone from 7 to 9 once. That was on a 77 Topps Butch Wynager. I thought the 8 to 10 jump was absurd, but the 7 to 9 is almost more alarming. On all the 8's that went to 10, they were clearly undergraded and were cherry-picked as such. The 7 was resub'd as I just couldn't see any wear or stock issues. NM 7 generally denotes wear or obvious sub-centering standards.

dgf

wolfbear

I generally only submit cards from the 1960's and earlier,
so I'm looking for the difference between 7's, 8's, and 9's and that difference is real.

For people submitting more modern cards from the 1970's and later it's not the same.
They're basically only looking for 9's and 10's and the difference between those two grades is negligible.

I can see getting hammered on a modern submission and getting a 65 % bump-up on another day ...

gameusedhoop

Ok guys, here is the back story. In January a received a 21 card submission that was I felt was undergraded, all 70 + 71 Topps hockey. I just resubmitted 17 of the 21, four cards were immediately needed so they disappeared in January, so there was really no cherry picking involved. Of the 17 that were resubmitted, 10 of them received a bump up in grade. 3 went from 7 to 8, 7 went from 8 to 9. The remaining 7 stayed the same, no cards dropped a grade. In fact 3 of the cards were the first given a PSA 9 grade. In my last submission before this I had a 1981 card go from 7 to 9, the difference between the two should be pretty noticable.

I don't know how you guys feel about this but a 59% initial error rate seems outrageous. What if you only received 41% of your mail, or 41% of you dinner was edible. I really don't think that it is right to have to pay twice to get what I paid for the first time. Does anyone here think that more than one person looks at each card? I doubt it or things like this wouldn't happen. How can 2 or more people be right at work on 41% of the time. The checks and balances seem out of whack at PSA. Imagine if they only caught 41% of doctored cards, they wouldn't be in business very long.

eyebone

41%....hmmmm....what if my wife was only "in the mood" 41% of the days in a year? I would be giddy.

Eyebone

mealeworm

IF THE GRADE DON'T FIT..... YOU MUST RE-SUBMIT...

phreakydancin

I understand your frustration, but that's a pretty small sample size, and not exactly a random one either.

Thulnanth

Hey All,

While it is frustrating to pay good $$$ to get a card back obviously undergraded, I am more concerned about the cards that go the other way. Lately I have been really looking close at the slabbed cards I might want to buy, and a surprising many of them are DOGS for the grade. I would be more than willing to put up with nice undergraded cards if it meant getting rid of the 10's with aweful centering or faint whitening on the edges (I collect mostly black bordered cards). The good news in this is I've been able to pass on quite a few cards, saving me some cash for the nicer examples

Take it easy,
Jared

Munchjs

I've had many pristine cards grade 8-9's that were resubmitted up to three times and they got 10's. About 25% of my cards receive a bump up in grades. However, I only resubmit cards that deserve better grades. Sometimes the graders are far two harsh.

downgoesfrazier

...don't know how you guys feel about this but a 59% initial error rate seems outrageous. What if you only received 41% of your mail, or 41% of you dinner was edible. I really don't think that it is right to have to pay twice to get what I paid for the first time. Does anyone here think that more than one person looks at each card? I doubt it or things like this wouldn't happen...


and there you have it.

wolfbear

Those that can ... do.
Those tha't can't do ... teach.

Those that can do neither ... coach.

NewJerseyMeatHook

Hey, I teach AND coach!

Guess that about sums up my existence.

And, YES, while I have earned a few terrific submissions, my last one absolutely stunk. Does this mean that all of a sudden my eyes went bad?

I am a bit irked by the fact that I must spend additional funds, and more importanly take the time to crack and resubmit cards that I believe were undergraded in the first place.

It's amazing how much cash can be lost by one little grade.

The captain of the PSA ship closes his letters with the line "Never get cheated." Sometimes I don't agree with him.

wolfbear

<< <i>Hey, I teach AND coach!

Guess that about sums up my existence.
>>


Sorry NewJerseyMeatHook. My intent was merely to kid around with dgf.

Forgot to add that those who can't teach or coach
sit around and sell stuff on eBay, and that about sums up my miserable existence.

Here's a fun exercise if you have the time :

Get a stack of 50 raw cards that vary in condition,
go through them and give each one a grade and write it down.

Put them aside for a month or two, shuffle them up,
and without looking at the grade you gave them the first time, go through them and write down a grade for each one again.

Your results may be surprising ...

gameusedhoop

Here's another fun exercise, do only 41% of you job correctly, turn it in to your boss, wait a month or two, shuffle your stack of resumes and start looking for work elsewhere, as you've been sitting home for far too long without work.

All kidding aside, some of us know how to grade cards and can do so coldly and rationally without wearing rose colored glasses. There is quite alot of talk on this board lately about submissions being graded far too harshly by people who are experts in certain sets or issues. Alot of us know exactly what a card should grade and we know when we've had the screws put to our submissions. "if the grade doesn't fit...then you must resubmit" is used so often it has become cliche. All I (we) ask is that our cards be graded fairly the first time around, for the kind of cash that the graders make and the cash we have to pay, things should be done right the first time around. Remember they claim that two people look at each card and if they don't agree it goes to a third for the final answer, this doesn't seem to be the case, as it is hard to believe that two people were both wrong on almost 60% of the time the first time around, then all of a sudden the same cards were all a grade higher 2 months later. Just my 2 cents, or 4 cents as I had to resubmit an order to get the right grades.

zef204

My submission just came back and I will be picking out 25 cards that I feel are undergraded and I will resubmit. I will let you know the results. I too usually have a good eye and I am shocked by my latest grades.

Stay tuned...

gameusedhoop

Zef....be real quiet......do you hear that noise?......"CA-CHING" ......that noise is coming from the front office at PSA. They are wringing up your next resubmission, we should get a resubmission discount the 2nd time around on the cards that change in grade.

We better watch out, the new in house policy at PSA may be to grade all cards lower the first time around and bump them up the 2nd time. Nothing like repeat business to keep the $$$ flowing.

Southerncards

You guys are killing me with this thread.

Sad thing is, after all the complaints, some folks still dont get it.

STOP SENDING THEM YOUR MONEY IF YOU ARE UNHAPPY!

USE ANOTHER GRADER!

I can recommend one........

zef204

<< <i>You guys are killing me with this thread.

Sad thing is, after all the complaints, some folks still dont get it.

STOP SENDING THEM YOUR MONEY IF YOU ARE UNHAPPY!

USE ANOTHER GRADER!

I can recommend one........ >>

I'd rather keep sending PSA my money rather than throwing it away with the grader you'd suggest.

aro13

I like the experiment Wolfbear suggests. I usually inventory my cards every couple of years and when I re-grade them the grades often change. PSA apparently has 11 to 13 graders on staff. Unfortunately they all do not grade exactly the same. Some submissions I send I feel are harshly graded, others a little lenient, I think it all depends on the day and which grader you get. I have found my re-submissions (mostly pre 1961 cards) usually yield the same grade. When I get the bump it is usually on more modern (post 1970) cards.

Southerncards

<< <i>I'd rather keep sending PSA my money rather than throwing it away with the grader you'd suggest. >>



Well Zef, feel free to use whoever makes you happy!

jackstraw

Jim
I have had many SGC cards bumped from SGC 92's and PSA 8's to SGC 96's. I have had many SGC 96's go to PSA 8's. I have had many cards that I thought PSA or SGC graded too hard but in the end if I wasn't happy with the card itself I wouldn't have submitted it. I don't see how anybody could say either company is inconsitant just because of a handfull of cards resubmitted. I would imagine they don't spend all that much time on anything post 69? So yes you are going to have inconsistent opinions that vary from month to month on nm to gem mint cards from both companies.
I bought 10 SGC 96's from a dealer and I was absoulutly floored on how terrible they were graded. I actually post pictures on their message board . I couldn't see any mint qualities what so ever. I bought another 10 SGC 96's from a different dealer and I was floored on the quality and scratched my head as to why some weren't 98's? Same could be said for PSA I have bought 8's that I thought were garbage and 8's that I thought were spectacular! Its just that those 2 SGC situations stick in my head.

jackstraw

I would like to see PSA institute a checklist on there grades posted page. Something where they don't ship your cards right away. Have check boxes next to the cert number and then at the bottom have a check box for ok to ship. We as customers can check it right then and there for review or mislabeled? How much time and money would it save if you could catch the labeling errors before they ship? Maybe on the review this card please line they charge another 1 or 2 dollars for a review and give you a reason why it didn't grade higher ? then click on the OK to ship and they ship next business day? Of course we would have to be an internet user customer so they would have some sort of diffrent membership for this?I would pay more membership fees for the ability to do this, and if you don't want this service and your OK with what your getting then just buy the regular membership. Another thing on the ICM(internet collectors membership) we should have a where are my cards in the process update so we don't have to call customer service a billion times after the 20th business day!

NewJerseyMeatHook

Final illustration: One '84 Topps Mattingly #8 comes back a GEM MINT 10 . . . with four (4) distinct, vertical surface wrinkles that I missed before submitting. Sold on eBay for well over $100.

A 1974 Leroy Kelly I was very reluctant to even submit in the first place due to two very obvious stains on both 4's of jersey - returned as a GEM MINT 10.

What gives?