police seeking some help

Rob85635

Hi, I am hoping that someone might be able to help with an investigation that the police department I work for is conducting.

We are investigating a possible fraudulant transaction that occured between two people who used Ebay. Ebay has been unable to resolve this and it has resulted in a complaint being filed.

Without going into to many details, the basics are that two parties are in dispute over a coin. The coin in question was advertised as a genuine 1889 CC Morgan. The person who won the auction recieved a replica 1889 cc clearly stamped "copy" and containing an alphanumeric code that we are hoping is some kind of serial number. As you might imagine the dollar amount is sizeable as this was supposed to be a real Morgan

We are wondering if the coins number is a serial number that can be traced. If anyone knows of companies that sell replica 1889 CC morgans that have been stamped "copy" and have an alphanumeric SN, can you please post here any information that might be helpful.

At this point I am reluctant to give out the code printed on the coin for reasons of confidentiality but might be willing to do so if anyone is able to help our department. I will be working for another 3 hours from the time of this post, you can call me at the listed number below during that time or post here. After 1500 Arizona time I will be off and you can get me at my cell at 520-249-3923.

I have been tasked with doing the research on this matter because I am a coin collector myself but certainly do not have the backround or knowledge that this group does. Any help would be appreciated. I can provide further information to anyone who can be of assistance if needed.

Rob Satterfield
Patrol / Dispatch Volunteer
Badge #292
Sierra Vista Police Department
911 N. Coronado Dr.
Sierra Vista, AZ 85635
520-458-3311 work

Steve27

Does it look like this LINK one?

relayer

Hobby Protection Act passed in 1973 requires any replica coin minted after that date have the word "COPY" on it.

But of course the nice people on eBay don't like displaying the side that says "COPY" when they are trying to scam somebody.

A lot of these were minted by the Franklin Mint, but there are other private mints that produce these as well.

Steve27

Here's one with a serial number on it LINK.

Steve27

This company LINK has two for sale, but it doesn't look like they produce them.

Rob85635

Yes, that coin with the copy # on it looks right. Can anyone provide a company that may manufacter that coin? I recieved a phone call from a poster stating that he thinks that the US Mint may have produced replica 89 CC Morgans, can anyone else confirm this? If so I can call them.

Thanks

Rob
SVPD

poorguy

We are investigating a possible fraudulant transaction that occured between two people who used Ebay. Ebay has been unable to resolve this and it has resulted in a complaint being filed.

Without going into to many details, the basics are that two parties are in dispute over a coin. The coin in question was advertised as a genuine 1889 CC Morgan. The person who won the auction recieved a replica 1889 cc clearly stamped "copy" and containing an alphanumeric code that we are hoping is some kind of serial number. As you might imagine the dollar amount is sizeable as this was supposed to be a real Morgan

We are wondering if the coins number is a serial number that can be traced. If anyone knows of companies that sell replica 1889 CC morgans that have been stamped "copy" and have an alphanumeric SN, can you please post here any information that might be helpful.



The facts from what I could gather from this post:

#1. The coin clearly had "COPY" stamped on it so the manufacturer of the coin did not do anything fraudulent.

#2. The deal occured on eBay between two eBay members.

#3. Someone is obviously out a large sum of cash because of this.

If you are able to contact the seller of the coin, they should be the one to return the money to the buyer. If you cannot locate the seller of the coin, then you should have grounds to get contact information from eBay about this seller and pursue him through the local police department from the zip code he registered with eBay. The money had to go somewhere. My guess is start looking for the P.O. Box or street address the money was sent to.

Rob85635

Perhaps there is some confusion, let me restate a few things.

We know the seller and buyer.
Seller states he sent a real CC, Buyer states he recieved a replica CC.
We are only trying to find out if anyone knows a company that makes Replica 1889 CCs with Serial Numbers

If you have not already figured it out, we are trying to trace the origin of the replica CC by its Serial number, this might help us to determine if the coin was purchased by seller or buyer? Get it?

Rob

tjkillian

The U.S. mint has only made genuine 1889-CC Morgan dollars. If it stamped "copy" on it, it is clearly a replica. The U.S. government never put serial numbers on any Morgan dollar of any year or mint. If the coin has a serial number, it is also a replica. Replicas have value only as a novelty and not as a numismatic item. I would put the value at $5.00 or less.

Tom

Steve27

"I recieved a phone call from a poster stating that he thinks that the US Mint may have produced replica 89 CC Morgans, can anyone else confirm this?"

I can confirm that this NEVER happened.

poorguy

If you have not already figured it out, we are trying to trace the origin of the replica CC by its Serial number, this might help us to determine if the coin was purchased by seller or buyer? Get it?

Ah, thanks for clarifying.

What you could do is have the seller provide a picture of the CC morgan because if he doesn't have a picture of a genuine one, then the one he sent must be fake. If he tries to steal a picture from another website, it will be spotted here immediately.

Also, even if you have a serial number of the fake and where it came from, the coin may have changed hands numerous times. However, if records do indicate that the buyer or seller bought the coin from the manufacturer then I believe the answer will be obvious. Might also want to check each person's eBay feedback or auctions won by both the buyer and seller to see if that fake 1889-CC can be found in there. If it shows up in either one's feedback or coins purchased on eBay, that'll prove just as much as the serial number matching with the manufacturer and buyer.

kranky

Looks like the ones from the National Collectors Mint.

Mark

Rob:

As others have mentioned, there is no US government reproduction of an 1889 CC dollar with a serial number. (Or even one without a serial number... )

I do not know who made the coin/replica that you have, but perhaps Ken Potter might. He is apparently a serious numismatist who also sells replicas. A URL for a relevant web page is here.

I wish you luck in straightening everything out. And, since you mention that you are a coin collector, why not stick around thse forums after the case is resolved? We already have at least two officers posting regularly, including one officer (and his wife) posting frequently on the "Open Forum."

Mark

poorguy

<< <i>"I recieved a phone call from a poster stating that he thinks that the US Mint may have produced replica 89 CC Morgans, can anyone else confirm this?"

I can confirm that this NEVER happened. >>



I agree.

PhillyJoe

On Ebay # 8389637840, the National Collector's Mint seems to sell them. Don't know if they manufacture, but the reverse has the "copy" and the serial number in the right place. If they don't manufacture, I'm sure they can tell you who does.

Joe

relayer

<< <i>Looks like the ones from the National Collectors Mint. >>



Yep - that's the one. I was trying to remember who made these and was blaming the Franklin Mint, but it's Arizona's own Barry Goldwater who's behind this ruse

slipgate

It is highly unlikely you'll ever be able to track down the replica's ownership history from the serial number - if it was sold on ebay, you'd have to look at every auction over the past few years (not possible) that this coin was featured and look at the picture in the auction to verify the serial number. I doubt any dealer would inventory this type of item by the S/N on the "coin".

As somoeone else said, these are not numismatic items, they are novelties.

If the coin was truly swapped during shipping as the seller claims, it was either done by his shipping department or the post office. If it was the post office, that would be a pretty sophisticated and well-planned crime.

It sounds more like someone did it as a joke, perhaps someone he lives with? If not a joke, the seller is where I'd put my money.

If this really is a theft, the only recourse that I see would be to follow through on the insurance and/or credit card company/paypal to recover any funds that were insured.

relayer

<< <i>"I recieved a phone call from a poster stating that he thinks that the US Mint may have produced replica 89 CC Morgans, can anyone else confirm this?"

I can confirm that this NEVER happened. >>

How do you know nobody called him?

pontiacinf

serial number on the edge or I should say where reeding on a coin would normally be, is a production lot number, it can only be traced back to the approximate date it was produced, the numbers are not used to tie a specific reproduction to a buyer

pontiacinf

<< <i>

<< <i>"I recieved a phone call from a poster stating that he thinks that the US Mint may have produced replica 89 CC Morgans, can anyone else confirm this?"

I can confirm that this NEVER happened. >>

How do you know nobody called him? >>



steve was referring to the mint making repros, not if the guy called

Steve27

Yep, Kranky nailed it National Collectors mint (I thought it might be Gallery Mint, but their work is better than this).

FullStepJeffs

<< <i>Perhaps there is some confusion, let me restate a few things.

We know the seller and buyer.
Seller states he sent a real CC, Buyer states he recieved a replica CC.
We are only trying to find out if anyone knows a company that makes Replica 1889 CCs with Serial Numbers

If you have not already figured it out, we are trying to trace the origin of the replica CC by its Serial number, this might help us to determine if the coin was purchased by seller or buyer? Get it?

Rob >>




Rob,

Who actually interviewed the seller and buyer? How were those interviews conducted? I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job, but this story seems very odd to someone who conducts many interviews of potential suspects that either the seller or the buyer isn't telling the truth about this. If the police department is looking for a potential prosecution, even though I don't know Arizona law... one word... polygraph.

I also find it strange that the seller says they sent a real dollar and the buyer says they received a copy. If both individuals are found to be truthful, then someone else switched the package... highly doubtful.

This case smells... my gut is telling me the rest of the story is missing. I'd be more than happy to discuss the case with you via pm's (turn it on) but this forum is not the place to discuss this case any further.

Peace!

Steve

Tarmac

Tracking a serial# is a pointless exercise. Do sellers really keep track of coin Serial #they sell? As someone stated this is a novelty item.

Didn't the seller send the coin via registered mail? If so the buyer could/should see if the box was tampered with when he/she got it.

Finally, I am surprise the local PD is involved in something like this. Isn't this a postal authorities investigation jusrisdiction?

This whole sound sounds strange.

UncleWiggly

<< <i>Yep, Kranky nailed it National Collectors mint (I thought it might be Gallery Mint, but their work is better than this). >>




I don't think National Collectors Mint actually mints the coins or silver rounds do they? I was under the impression they work up deals with private mints and then just distributes the stuff....i.e. The World Trade Tower coin from the Marianna Islands that they got in trouble for was minted by a private mint in Colorado.



Jerry

ER

I don't know guys, but this thread is strange. Know what I mean?

UncleWiggly

<< <i>I don't know guys, but this thread is strange. Know what I mean? >>





Well, look what time it is!


Jerry

Smitty79

I highly doubt you'll find anything out via the serial number. I'm fairly certain that the serial number on the coin in question may just be the number of the strike in a limited edition (i.e. #0560 of 5000). I'd be very surprised if any of these fly by night 'mints' keep records of who got what number.

relayer

<< <i>I don't know guys, but this thread is strange. Know what I mean? >>

You need to spend more time on eBay

carl

Seller says he sent a real coin. Buyer says he received a fake. No mention as to the shipping container being tampered with. No mention of shipping containers method of shipping (UPS, US Mail,etc).
True, if manufacturer kept a record of who bought the coin, that would solve the situation but if not, then what. A lie detector situation sounds expensive and since not full proof, may not be applicable. Naturally the shipping company would have to have proof of container tampering and after a while that too could be useless since it had to be opened to find out what was inside.
Really sounds like a no win situation.
Put them both in jail and let them argue it out.

Conder101

This is the first thing I key on.


<< <i> The coin in question was advertised as a genuine 1889 CC Morgan. The person who won the auction recieved a replica 1889 cc clearly stamped "copy" and containing an alphanumeric code that we are hoping is some kind of serial number. >>


No link was given to the auction. My first question is WAS it truly advertised as a genuine 1889 CC Morgan dollar? Or was it something like "Genuine 1889-CC Morgan Proof." like you see many of these auctions do. Were the pictures of the coin the buyer received? Or were they pictures of a real 1889-CC dollar? In short until I see some evidence that the seller misrepresented the piece I don't see where the buyer has a case. There just has not been enough information presented.

As far as tracking the copy back to the manufacturer, I don't see a point. The manufacturer, whoever he was, produced a copy and marked it in accordance to the requirements of the law. What happened to it after that, and what others may have done with it are of no concern to the manufacturer. He is not a party to this case at all. Even if you could prove that the seller bought it at some time, can you prove that it was the item sold? Is it pictured showing the serial number? And if you can shw that he bought one and that the buyer received it, you are still right back to WHAT DOES THE AUCTION SAY!. I hate to see people get ripped off, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for people who spend large sums on things they don't know anything about when the sale they are buying from is clearly shady to anyone who has even a little knowledge about the subject. I don't know much about real estate but I would really be surprised to find that peope would feel sorry for me If I sent some guy $10,000 for a one acre ocean front retirement lot in AZ. I may not know real estate, but a quick look at a map will show that there is no ocean front in AZ. If I buy the land without looking, shame on me.

tmot99

<< <i>No link was given to the auction. My first question is WAS it truly advertised as a genuine 1889 CC Morgan dollar? Or was it something like "Genuine 1889-CC Morgan Proof." like you see many of these auctions do. Were the pictures of the coin the buyer received? Or were they pictures of a real 1889-CC dollar? In short until I see some evidence that the seller misrepresented the piece I don't see where the buyer has a case. There just has not been enough information presented. >>



With all due respect, the original poster did not ask the forum to solve the puzzle. The question was about the number on the copy version that he has. He was wondering if anybody knows if this is a traceable serial number.

It is none of our business' what the other evidence may be. We don't need to solve every possible fraud case. We don't need to take sides in every arguement. Provide assistance on the serial number if you can. I'm sure the original poster would be happy to answer as many questions as he can via PM if you are so inclined to do the detective work.