What's the word on GAI?
helionaut
Posts: 1,555 ✭✭
I'm in the market for a couple mid-grade card from a vintage set I've been collecting for years and I have decided to go the graded route for key players. There's one such card on ebay now, graded by GAI, and I was wondering what the consensus is on the quality of their grading, and especially their ability to keep trimmed, touched up, and otherwise altered cards out of their holders. I've been on these boards for years and there have been a number of very strong discussions that had a generally negative tone to them, but I'm looking for reasons that their service is suspect. Condition is one thing, but any kind of tampering I can't abide. I've only got one GAI card, it happens to be part of my set, and it looks trimmed to me, like someone took an x-acto knife down one edge, the edge sort of curling up. This card, if I purchased it, would be the most expensive card in my collection (as far as price I've paid) so I'd like to have as much confidence as I can in it.
WANTED:
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
0
Comments
initially didnt several Major collectors begin swapping their graded collections to GAI holders?
or was that all just scuttlebutt they used to get press?
Mike
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Good post, I agree.
Stay classy,
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
You guys get to be way too much in your infinite wisdom of what you know or what you think you know.
So bash away at GAI and look at your older flips and question them also. Enough of the foolishness.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
1) I do look at older PSA flips and question them in general.
2) When PSA pack grading starts later this year, what will GAI's main attraction/staple then be? Graded cards? Graded packs? Half grades?
Registry? Dealer bumps? "It will be ready on Monday!"?
Quick get a pail.
Stay classy,
Rom
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
honestly, I think in some cases GAI overgrades with the liberal use of their half-point grading system...however, I do not think the likes of Mike Baker let trimmed, altered cards get encapsulated, knowingly. Can't really answer the question until I've seen what card helionaut is interested in purchasing.
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
<< <i>One of these days, I'd love to learn some actual facts that would make whatever skepticism is out there about GAI "justified". I've been a member of this board for 7 months and I'm still waiting.
>>
Ron - I've purchased thousands of dollars of GAI cards that, once cracked-out, were *all* rejected by PSA as 'evidence of trimming'. Does that give you pause?
<< <i>
<< <i>One of these days, I'd love to learn some actual facts that would make whatever skepticism is out there about GAI "justified". I've been a member of this board for 7 months and I'm still waiting.
>>
Ron - I've purchased thousands of dollars of GAI cards that, once cracked-out, were *all* rejected by PSA as 'evidence of trimming'. Does that give you pause? >>
That puts you in a whole different strata than board members who've never owned a GAI card. Also, Ron mentioned that he hadn't seen any actual facts-- and he hadn't until your post.
Some Japanese businessman-- I don't know who-- once said that the difference between the Japanese and Americans is that the Japanese spend their time observing while American spend their time making opinions. Truth value notwithstanding, that's an intersting observation----and one that I frequently recollect when threads of this sort veer in this predictable direction.
I have had SGC cards cracked out and come back as EVID TRIM and PSA cards cracked out and come back as EVID TRIM and I think both of those companies do a decent job.
Regards,
Alan
Some would call it waffling ... I do, and so do several others.
How many cards are we talking about?
Until I see some sort of empirical evidence that would tend to confirm a) GAI slabs more trimmed cards than PSA, i.e, they make more mistakes than PSA; and/or b) GAI intentionally slabs altered material, I refuse to give in to the bashing that takes place on this board of Global. Until the day that evidence is uncovered - if it ever is - the bottom line is that all grading companies are going to make mistakes, including PSA as well as the other would-be competitors SGC, BVG, etc. Grading is inherently subjective and will remain so. I cannot speak for SGC but I have seen all the other companies' grading standards "evolve" over time, some for the better, some for the worse. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is hard for me to fathom a grading company - especially one who is trying to make it as an alternative to PSA - intentionally slabs altered material. It does not make sense. I do not think Baker and Rocchi and whoever else runs Global are dumb enough to do that. I also do not think whoever runs SGC are intentionally giving SGC 86's and 88's to a lot of cards that have centering issues. They're just applying their own standards.
FWIW, I have had cards rejected by GAI as trimmed that were subsequently slabbed by PSA. I have had GAI cards with half-grades that were bumped up by PSA. I also have cards in GAI holders that I have no intention of submitting to PSA because it is going to get the same grade and given that I have no intention of selling the card, it would be a waste of time and money to have it PSA-slabbed. At the end of the day for me, it is about the card, not the holder, because generally I'm not a dealer and only a seller when I have excess stuff.
Stay classy,
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>One of these days, I'd love to learn some actual facts that would make whatever skepticism is out there about GAI "justified". I've been a member of this board for 7 months and I'm still waiting. >>
Ron, the information is out there, true to form. Not all tales are told on CU boards.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
<< <i>
<< <i>One of these days, I'd love to learn some actual facts that would make whatever skepticism is out there about GAI "justified". I've been a member of this board for 7 months and I'm still waiting.
>>
Ron - I've purchased thousands of dollars of GAI cards that, once cracked-out, were *all* rejected by PSA as 'evidence of trimming'. Does that give you pause? >>
Also-- if you still have these cards I would be interested in buying them-- at a discount, of course. It's my experience that having a card rejected once (or even two or three times) is not indicative of its chances of getting slabbed on a future submission.
Let me know,
Guy
Just a piece of advice...you can obviously take it or leave it.
I have never bought a GAI card and dont intend to. However, if mikeschmidt is giving you advice, I would give it serious consideration. He's been around the block more times than most and is pretty astute when it comes to industry related issues.
Good luck.
Regards,
Alan
<< <i>
How many cards are we talking about?
>>
Ron - I'm not bashing GAI [notice my absence from this thread]. I simply responded to your question about empirical evidence. I purchased nine cards from a major auction house for thousands of dollars. I cracked each of the nine cards and sent them in to PSA, and I got nine "evidence of trimming" grades. Had it been one or two - or even half of them, whatever, I understand the game. But when 100% of crack-and-resubmits get dinged for being trimmed, it causes me great consternation.
2) With all due respect to Mike, there are also quite a few industry veterans who seem supportive of Global (as well as PSA). They appear on this board with regularity.
3) "Ron, the information is out there, true to form. Not all tales are told on CU boards." Again, is the contention being put forth that GAI intentionally grades altered material? If so, let's get it out there and at least do less-informed collectors a favor so we know what's going on.
Stay classy,
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
Stay classy,
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
I do not feel that this forum is an appropriate one to blast my grievances, or any particulars of such - especially since I do not know many of the posters here, not to mention the many lurkers who read. So, that said, I am not comfortable with disclosing any particulars about my auction winnings and submission.
As it specifically relates to the 1955 Bowman issue, I will authoritatively say that there seems to be fundamental disagreements between PSA and GAI relating to this set. I do not want to speculate what those differences are, or why they occur - just simply that they exist. I know and have had numerous discussions with multiple 1955 Bowman collectors - and have yet to meet someone who has been able to consistently [or even sporadically] cross over high-grade GAI cards to similar PSA grades, with most being rejected [whether minimum grade, or evid of something or other]. Most of the high-grade GAI cards do seem to originate from Gary Moser and possibly Gerry Schwartz - from which they are filtered through the hobby through various auction houses, ebay consignments, etc. I will not go into anything about either of those individuals here - but if you search through enough forums, you should find ample data to make your own educated decisions.
Although GAI does not have a Registry or available population report - there does seem to be some interesting data that can be gleaned that causes questions. For example, in the last 15 years of PSA's existence, they have graded exactly eleven 1955 Bowman #40 Vic Wertz cards as PSA 8 NM/MT and one card as PSA 9 MINT. In the last two years, GAI has graded one #40 Vic Wertz as GAI 10 Pristine, and at least two more #40 Vic Wertz cards as GAI 9.5 GEM MINT. This is an interesting and anomalous example - but there are scores of other examples from this set that, at the margin, raise eyebrows.
~ms
I have no eye-witness accounts of 'trimming' as MS has offered you. However, my inference is more on the business flow of things: ie; botched/lost orders, lack of follow-through, severe time lags, unkept promises/statements. It happens - time and time again.
I fully believe Mike Baker to be very reputable and knowledgable overall. That said - he does not grade all the cards, and it also does not mean that card alterers are not a step ahead. I know some very advanced people that, for the good of the hobby, help educate the card graders about how alterations happen. When the incentives for card alteration can be in the thousands and the cost of grading is $8, there is a huge disconnect, and incentives to do 'undetectable' work.
Ron: Global has been apprised of the situation.
All - I really don't want to get into any more specifics/details of my experience. I am not bashing GAI - I own a handful of their graded cards. Also, I am not saying I endorse them. Given this latest experience, I certainly have cause for concern. That said - I think overall they tend to do a good job with most of what they do. I am going home for the day to spend time with my son, and I'm probably not going to be back on this thread again for any more comments. I simply wanted to provide an example to respond to Ron's request.
~ms
I've watched them in action at the Shiner's show in Wilmington, MA more than once...
I'd trust my 10 ans 12 year old daughters to grade better than these guys....total lack of professionalism....
Just my 2 cents....
and for the record...no it wasn't Mike Baker there doing the grading, I agree Mike is a great asset to the hobby BUT like any company..we all have monkeys working for us!!
"Ron,
I have no eye-witness accounts of 'trimming' as MS has offered you. However, my inference is more on the business flow of things: ie; botched/lost orders, lack of follow-through, severe time lags, unkept promises/statements. It happens - time and time again. "
Well now, this is a different issue. You will get no disagreement from me here on these customer service issues.
Stay classy,
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
I would not come to the conclusion that since Mike Baker thinks the 9 cards are legit and PSA thinks they are trimmed that that means they are trimmed.
I think and you probably agree that all the questionable cards you bought came from Gary Moser. I think they are all legit.
I have spoken to a couple of national dealers recently and there seems to be a lot of questions about many of the early 50s Bowman issues by PSA.
I still believe that Baker is an outstanding grader and an honest guy....and I also believe that GAI will survive and prosper in the future.
Ron,
It goes without saying that GAI will stand behind their grades.
Jim
<< <i>GAI is one notch above SCD which is one notch above PRO, that's the heart of the matter. . . Avoid them at any cost!!!!!!!!!!!
The old SCD actually did a fine job. I believe it's the slabs with the red label that are 'safe'... but run away from the blue labels.
Dealers need to make a living off our hobby.
I always take anything they have to say with a rather large grain of salt.
mikeschmidt has no axe to grind here.
He just happens to be one of most the knowledgeable and intelligent collectors around today.
Ignore his advice at your own peril ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>I actually gave Joe Orlaondo at a show a 1957 Topps card in a GAI 7 holder - personally. He handed it back to me in a Psa 8 holder 2 hours later. Hmmm..... >>
I think that says a lot more about Joe Orlando's integrity than it does about GAI grading ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
I read daily threads about how could this card be a 9 and how could a card with this print defect be a 10? I read about low end 8's and high end 8's, yet they bash half grades? If PSA is perfect, why do we have daily threads about people crying about an ebay auctions where the card did not deserve the grade received.
If PSA is so perfect, we would not be reading about people resubmitting cards 3 or 4 times looking for the grade they want. I think it is a terrible statement about PSA when you can submit the same card 4 times and receive 4 different grades. I opened a 1976 topps pack and found a Steve Garvey, which was submitted to PSA. It was graded a 7OC? It was cracked open and sent back in, it came back Evidence Trimmed. I did not trim it and I pulled it from a pack myself. It was sent in again under the $5.00 special last month and now sits in a Mint 9 holder.
We have people saying that all GAI or SGC cards are recolored or trimmed. I believe Psa has had more than their share of problems. Considering that their flagship card, the PSA8 Wagner serial #00000001 has had the experts saying for a long time that the card has been trimmed and possibly bleached and certainly overgraded. Many board members here will not purchace a serial # starting with 0 or one with slashes through the 0's. They state that those serial #'s are known to be very overgraded with no chance of ever regrading the same grade.
Members complain EVERY single day about the poor customer service or the amount of time the grades take to post. Members even know the rude customer service members by name and extension #. I admit I had to make repeated calls to GAI to even get my cards back from them, so I guess they all have their problems.
There are 4 main grading services, beckett , PSA, SGC, and GAI, each has it's own specialty and it's own loyal customers. I have room for each service in my collection of cards. All services have their problems, but I enjoy graded cards. Psa is far from the best or the worst, they are just the biggest. Being the Biggest does not always mean being the best, McDonalds is the biggest hamburger chain, but their burgers taste like CR@P!!
These 4 grading companies are here to stay, YOU are just going to have to learn to accept that. Like the brilliant words spoken by the "Great" Rodney King, Can't we all just get along?
65nova - Wish it was all just as simple as 'can't we all just get along'.
Keep hanging around the hobby and paying attention, and eventually you'll get a better feel for what's going on ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Regards,
Alan
Someone starts a thread about their interest in buying a high value card in a GAI holder. Then next comes posts that compare GAI with the likes of PRO--ridiculous. It's a high value card in a GAI holder...not a high value GAI slab that's protecting a meaningless card. You want to buy a high value card? Then examine it yourself and forget about who's name is on the slab. Whatever happened to buy the card not the holder?....nothing more than ancient history in this hobby of ours.
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
Good post. I agree.
65 Nova - good post too. Welcome to the boards.
Stay classy,
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
I didn't know mike baker and danny fisher posted on these boards
<< <i>I have no use for GAI (as far as submitting cards to them is concerned) mainly from the organizational and customer service perspective. I had submissions lost, delayed, or cards just coming back to me unslabbed because they didn't have a holder for them...the list goes on and on. However, I believe once in the grading room, Mike does his best (and he's one of the best) to ensure trimmed or altered cards do not wind up in a GAI slab.
Someone starts a thread about their interest in buying a high value card in a GAI holder. Then next comes posts that compare GAI with the likes of PRO--ridiculous. It's a high value card in a GAI holder...not a high value GAI slab that's protecting a meaningless card. You want to buy a high value card? Then examine it yourself and forget about who's name is on the slab. Whatever happened to buy the card not the holder?....nothing more than ancient history in this hobby of ours. >>
In all fairness to helionaut you can't exactly scrutinize the card for alterations if you're making an online deal.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
The posters above who say we should scrutinize the card rather than the label are correct. If we do this, there may be some fantastic deals in GAI and SGC holders.