Newbie Question Regarding Proof mint sets
fooswolf
Posts: 29
I have four proof mint sets, two from 1963 and two from 1964. When I look on PCGS the 1964 proof mint set lists for $14 and sells for a similar value on Ebay. I was looking at the PCGS pricing guide from the 1964 Kennedy Half dollar and noticed a strange discrepancy. Why are the MS coins worth more than the similarly graded proof coins? Hell the a single MS 65 coin is worth more than an entire proof set and a single PF-65 coin is worth as much as a proof set. Why wouldn’t it be prudent to remove the coins from the sealed proof set and send them in individually to PCGS to have them graded as either a proof or a MS coin? Is there some way an expert can discern whether or not a particular coin is a proof or merely an uncirculated business strike?
1964 Kennedy Half Dollar
PF-65 PF-66 PF-67 PF-68 PF-69
$ 15 $ 18 $ 30 $ 45 $ 85
MS-65 MS-66 MS-67 MS-68 MS-69
$ 35 $ 75 $ 850 $ 10500
1964 Quarter Dollar
PF-65 PF-66 PF-67 PF-68 PF-69
$ 15 $ 20 $ 35 $ 45
MS-65 MS-66 MS-67 MS-68 MS-69
$ 40 $ 85 $ 4000
MS/PR-65 Minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike
Also is there a better way to do tables in this forum?
Dan
1964 Kennedy Half Dollar
PF-65 PF-66 PF-67 PF-68 PF-69
$ 15 $ 18 $ 30 $ 45 $ 85
MS-65 MS-66 MS-67 MS-68 MS-69
$ 35 $ 75 $ 850 $ 10500
1964 Quarter Dollar
PF-65 PF-66 PF-67 PF-68 PF-69
$ 15 $ 20 $ 35 $ 45
MS-65 MS-66 MS-67 MS-68 MS-69
$ 40 $ 85 $ 4000
MS/PR-65 Minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike
Also is there a better way to do tables in this forum?
Dan
Dan
0
Comments
The simple anwser is "supply and demand". Take the 1964 Kennedy half for starters, in MS67 there is 30 graded at PCGS with one better. The same coin in PR 67DC is 132 graded and 265 graded better. Proof coins were some what protected and a lot of the MS coins were bang around togather from the mint and no special care given to them.
Tim
an MS unc 1964 coin may have a certain aged patena, but it may not.
So since proof coins are struck twice, does that mean a grader should be able to tell the difference between an MS-65 and a PF-65?
<< <i>I understand that MS unc coins are much rarer, but is it possible that a grader would not be able to tell the difference. I realize that
an MS unc 1964 coin may have a certain aged patena, but it may not.
So since proof coins are struck twice, does that mean a grader should be able to tell the difference between an MS-65 and a PF-65? >>
Exactly. Normally the proof will have squared rims and a highly reflective surface. The dies to
strike these are usually ground flat (basined) so that the fields of the struck coin are flat.
Even a mint state coin from new dies will usually look much different.
<< <i>So since proof coins are struck twice, does that mean a grader should be able to tell the difference between an MS-65 and a PF-65? >>
Yes, and you should be able to tell also. Go to the PCGS Registery, Kennedy Half Dollars Complete Set (1964-Present), and look at the number 3 set, "Syl's Kennedys ", he has pictures in his set of both Proof and MS 1964 Kennedys.
Tim
Keep in mind that the prices on the guide are often quite optimistically high, though there are exceptions. Check Ebay prices realized to see what the coins actually sell for.
>>>
from
http://www.telesphere.com/faq2.html#PROOFS
22. What are proof coins? What's the difference between the various proof sets offered in recent years by the U.S. mint?
Proof coins are specially manufactured for sale at a premium to collectors and sometimes for exhibition or for presentation as a gift or award. Proofs are generally distinguishable from ordinary coins by their mirrorlike fields, frosty devices (especially in recent years) and extra sharp details.
To obtain these qualities, each proof coin die is polished to produce an extremely smooth surface and used for a limited number of coins. Planchets are hand fed to the coin press, where they are struck at a higher than ordinary pressure. Struck coins are removed by hand with gloves or tongs. Modern proof coins are usually packaged in clear plastic to protect them from handling, moisture, etc.
That still leaves one question, why wouldn't someone buy a proof mint set and send the coins individually into PCGS for grading? In most cases you should get better than PF-65 ($14) and likely a PF-67 ($30) for just one coin in the set and even with the grading fee it seems to me that the mint proof sets are undervalued.
On my other 1964 proof set my Quarter has a green tint to it, the Half and the dime have only a slight greenish tint. The nickel is very nicely toned but appears to have what I believe are carbon spots on it. These coins are still in the plastic from the mint. Why is this quarter turning green, does this plastic have pcv in it? The memorial penny has a very pretty toned and red reverse, but the obverse isn't so nice in my opintion.
<< <i>That still leaves one question, why wouldn't someone buy a proof mint set and send the coins individually into PCGS for grading? >>
Some folks do. If they think the coin is CAM /DCAM or if the 64 Kennedy is AH in great shape, but don't go just by the PCGS Price Guide, the first PF69 1964 Kennedy that I bought was for only $38. If you are going to try and 'cherrypick' a proof set off of eBay for $14 plus $3 postage & insurance then submit it to PCGS for grading (another $5 postage & insurance plus $ 18 grading fee), that will be a total of about $40 invested and if the coin comes back graded PR 67, that sounds like deficit spending to me. I would just as soon wait and see if I could pick up a PR 69 for under $50.
Tim
Obverse
Reverse
Same Half 1964 Photo Head On
Obverse
1964 Green Quarter Proof (Color in photo is accurate)
Obverse
1964 Proof Nickel: Toning with carbon spots
Obverse
Reverse
1964 Proof Toned Penny
Reverse
<< <i>That still leaves one question, why wouldn't someone buy a proof mint set and send the coins individually into PCGS for grading? In most cases you should get better than PF-65 ($14) and likely a PF-67 ($30) for just one coin in the set and even with the grading fee it seems to me that the mint proof sets are undervalued. >>
Let's put some numbers to it and see if it makes sense. We wil assume you are going to buy a 1964 proof set for $14, send them all in to PCGS and your going to get lucky and hit two PF-67's worth $30 each out of the set.
Cost of set $14
Cost of slabbing with shipping $20 per coin
Total cost $114 and you have to wait 2 months to get the coins back.
Values after slabbing
Two PF-67's worth $30 each - $60
three PF-63's worth $5 each - $15
total value $75
Total profit: A $39 loss.
Now say you are good enough that you can pick out just the two coins that would make PF-67 and you ony send those in.
Cost of set $14
Cost of submitting plus shipping $20 per coin - $40
Total $54
Profits
2 coins at $30 each $60
3 coins ungraded at $3 each $9
total profits$15
If you goof and one come back as a 65 instead of a 67, total profits drops to neg $1
If one is 67 and the other 63 profits = neg $10
If both come back PF-65 profits = neg $17
If one is 65 and the other is 63 profits = neg $26
And if both come back PF-63 profits = negative $35
If there is only one PF-67 coin in the set , you can pick it send it in and get it slabbed then you can make $8 profit
If there are no PF-67's in the set any submissions would be a loss because you would be spending $20 to slab coins that would than be worth $14, a $6 loss per slab.
So you see, even though the total set is worth less than the sum of the parts, it usually isn't worth it to break the set up into the parts.
If Russ has none page Marty !
or vice versa,both are impossible to deal with !