ARE there any "CLASSIC" COIN "collectors" who purchase $5K & higher coins?
golddustin
Posts: 838 ✭✭
I would suggest to the clients of Legend and those who purchase sight unseen rarities in the few thousand to hundred thousand range (myself included), at that point the coin has morphed from a collector coin to an investment coin. Nobody puts out that kind of cash to fill a hole in series, or because the coin looks nice....it's because it is RARE and they expect a return on the investment. Risks, grading dynamics, markets are all vastly different in that price range than when collecting modern or any other series that doesn't involve many thousands of $$. After all that person could just as well put that amount into stocks, TIPS, ETFs, or CDs.
Is a person who enjoys collecting lower grade IHCs any different (in the classic camp's eyes) from a person who collects FS Jeffs from the past 30 - 40 years? Why does there have to be "market-makers" to make a coin collection relevant? Just as in the stock market, in numismatics a rising tide generally floats all boats, and those 100K and million dollar coins would not be enjoying the spirited bidding that they are if the entire coin market was not expanding.
It's great to be able to afford true rarities, and if a person is able to do that by making high grade or top-pop moderns and selling them for a nice profit, maybe Legend and the like will have a few more customers... not that they seem to care. The point is that collecting & investing in coins are two different, but not mutually exclusive endeavors.
Is a person who enjoys collecting lower grade IHCs any different (in the classic camp's eyes) from a person who collects FS Jeffs from the past 30 - 40 years? Why does there have to be "market-makers" to make a coin collection relevant? Just as in the stock market, in numismatics a rising tide generally floats all boats, and those 100K and million dollar coins would not be enjoying the spirited bidding that they are if the entire coin market was not expanding.
It's great to be able to afford true rarities, and if a person is able to do that by making high grade or top-pop moderns and selling them for a nice profit, maybe Legend and the like will have a few more customers... not that they seem to care. The point is that collecting & investing in coins are two different, but not mutually exclusive endeavors.
Don't you know that it's worth
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!
0
Comments
The important thing for me is that I enjoy collecting, I like what I collect, and I do not feel that my buying coins is "throwing money away". If someone with an excellent track record that I trusted advised me that FS Jeff nickels (to use your example) is a great collecting/investing opportunity and handed me a well-written book on the subject and a starter set, I would still pass.
One of my mentors (a friend who rarely posts here) has the following in his sig line:
"Collect for enjoyment" --I think that says it all.
<< <i>I have been known on occasion to buy coins in that price range, and I agree that collecting and investing are not mutually exclusive. I consider myself to be 80% collector and 20% investor (one of my trusted advisors once told me that he preferred me to be 60:40). My coin collection is not required to pay for retirement, educational expenses, a house or any other major financial expeditures. Of course, conditions might change, and I might need to liquidate the collection--no one knows what the future holds.
The important thing for me is that I enjoy collecting, I like what I collect, and I do not feel that my buying coins is "throwing money away". If someone with an excellent track record that I trusted advised me that FS Jeff nickels (to use your example) is a great collecting/investing opportunity and handed me a well-written book on the subject and a starter set, I would still pass.
One of my mentors (a friend who rarely posts here) has the following in his sig line:
"Collect for enjoyment" --I think that says it all. >>
Robert,
I could not agree more. The only difference is I am 64 and you are not, yet!
You say some of these coins in AU are worth
I do not believe that collector and investor are mutually exclusive. However, I also belive that the two terms need not be comingled.
This is simply not correct. What you are missing in this statement is the fact that to some people, $100,000 or more is the same as a few hundred dollars or less to another person. So it's not the money amount that determines whether investment must be a factor in acquiring a coin, but rather the relative amount to the buyer.
Many of the most fabulous collections of US coins are collected for the pure love of the coins. And those owners are known to buy 6 and 7 figure condition and absolute rarities.
I would suggest that those "who purchase sight unseen rarities in the few thousand to hundred thousand range" should consider stopping. There are a lot of trap coins out there waiting to snag the sight unseen buyer. Trust me, I know from personal experience.
I couldn't say for myslef because I have never broken the $1000 barrier for a purchase.
I do however know several collectors personally that have broken the 5 figure (many high 5 figures) boundary solely for coins that they needed and/or wanted for their personal collection. I don't think it's entirely rare for a serious collector to pay serious money for the right coin. Especially when that coin will complete his collection or make his collection completable.
I know that is true in my case.....
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
A used car doesn't count?
That is somewhat bizarre.
So, in answer to your question personally, I would say "Not me.".
TDN - Agreed...however, I still say that when somebody can afford to fill holes in a collection for 6 figures, the dynamics are different, as I mentioned. Those folks are already invested in stocks, bonds, real estate, etc (at least I HOPE they are!). And the 5K figure is a bit low - there are plenty of collectors who can spend that to complete sets.
Jim - That was, in a nutshell what I wanted to say, but in a roundabout way, to get a "discussion" going. A modern collector has every right to be proud of a high grade complete collection - in some cases more so, because they put their own sweat equity into making every coin, rather than relying on a network of dealers to help complete the set. I do realize that obviously, a classic collection of high grade coins cannot even be considered without the help of dealers on the lookout for your want list.
Using the above as an example, which set is more valuable to the person who collected it? Tough question - both have every reason to be proud of their coins, and the time, money and effort that went into them. That's what makes the hobby fun and educational, and I wouldn't begrudge either person for crowing about the accomplishment. Personally though, if I'm going to enlist dealers to help me find the coins that I need, and pay that extra % for their work & expertise, I expect that set to appreciate over time, whereas with the modern set, I'm just happy to pull out the collection and look at the coins or show them to others with like interests. Again, the two aspects of collecting are both valid reasons to collect, and I'm sure many people do both.
As I have mentioned, I'm working on a set of Barber halves in AU-BU condition, but I've also been putting together a high grade state quarter collection of my own submissions, and I actually feel a bit prouder of the SHQ set, since I used my own eyes and judgement to put the collcetion together....but I sure don't expect it to be worth much in the long run...probably less than the grading fees (hopefully not!), but I sure do expect that Barber set to bring back more than I put into it if/when I decide to let it go!
For sure, collect what you like, be it moderns, classics, Bechtels, Bingles, bottlecaps or buttons!
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!
priced rarities. There is probably some speculation across the board as well from
small hordes of 1856 cents to pallets of bicentennial quarters. Certainly the best
"investments" historically in coins have been the high power rarities and there are
more people who have to stretch to buy an 1804 dollar than who have to stretch
for a 1999 proof set. This would tend to lend a little more of an investment aspect
to the classic rarities.
There is little difference here except that since speculative coins would tend to turn
over a little faster than coins bought solely for collections they would be a little more
available relative to their numbers. It would be a stretch to say the prices are less
stable since the demand is there. With large numbers of people who desire a spec-
ific coin, any decrease in price would be met with some increase in demand at that
price.
While I like moderns from the collectibles standpoint their strenght lies in their lower
prices and lower demand. The low demand means room for growth. In the meantime
it also means availability.
<< <i>It's great to be able to afford true rarities, and if a person is able to do that by making high grade or top-pop moderns and selling them for a nice profit, maybe Legend and the like will have a few more customers.. >>
You just reminded me of something! I bought a 12-s Lincoln from Legend, with money made from selling Memorial duplicates, except the 12-s wasn't nice enough for my collection so I returned it!
as per the above i totally disagree............................
coins are not an investment
and yes if you are a collector and buy value opportunity coins(thats coins not ga-ga grade 69/70 plastic) and build a collection you are proud of and have fun and enjoyment
i think you might just do okie
<< <i>those who purchase sight unseen rarities in the few thousand to hundred thousand range (myself included), at that point the coin has morphed from a collector coin to an investment coin. Nobody puts out that kind of cash to fill a hole in series, or because the coin looks nice....
as per the above i totally disagree............................
coins are not an investment
and yes if you are a collector and buy value opportunity coins(thats coins not ga-ga grade 69/70 plastic) and build a collection you are proud of and have fun and enjoyment
i think you might just do okie >>
This guy can't comment on any subject without slamming moderns. Even if he could he's got it in his sigline too.
Of course most of the time we have to assume they are slams since his posts are a series of sentence fragments.
<< <i>those who purchase sight unseen rarities in the few thousand to hundred thousand range (myself included), at that point the coin has morphed from a collector coin to an investment coin. >>
I would believe anyone who purchases $5K coins sight-unseen is not much of a collector at all. And they are not too smart as investors either.
<< <i>Nobody puts out that kind of cash to fill a hole in series, or because the coin looks nice....it's because it is RARE and they expect a return on the investment. >>
I have a few coins that fall into that price range and it would make little matter if they dropped 50% or more in value. I buy my coins with entertainment dollars, not investment dollars. I collect for enjoyment. I keep score by how much joy the coin provides, not its value.
I do own one coin that is an exception, a coin that far exceeds what I would spend on entertainment. It is a coin that I purchased directly as an investment, and although I take great pride in ownership, in my mind it is not really a part of my set. Although I show it as part of my set (icon coin), I plan on replacing it with a much less expensive coin (but greater than 5K) in order to maintain a wall of separation between my coin collection and all my investments.
I once played Golf with 3 other guys who were playing for 100K skins and didn't bat an eye when one of them won 4 skins....they left me out of the mix LOL.
Greg
Classic rarities are finite by definition; what that leaves is a.) the number of people who desire them and b.) the prices they are willing to pay in order to obtain them, as the only variables in the equation. There are those may recognize this scenario and act to profit it from it - others may be collectors who weigh appreciation as a factor in their numismatic pursuits - indeed, the market itself may be driven by speculation from time to time - ultimately, however, the true value of coins is rooted in people's passion for them, and not in their investment potential.
>>>My Collection
I like the future name of your collection;
<< <i>majorbigdoofs >>
I will take a nice 1873 CC seated dime in a good over a MS70 1962 penny any day of the week!
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>Majorbigtime:
I like the future name of your collection;
<< <i>majorbigdoofs >>
That's a RussView term, and I can take a good natured ribbging (but have no stomach for the defamatory bile).
<< <i>Is a person who enjoys collecting lower grade IHCs any different (in the classic camp's eyes) from a person who collects FS Jeffs from the past 30 - 40 years? Why does there have to be "market-makers" to make a coin collection relevant? Just as in the stock market, in numismatics a rising tide generally floats all boats, and those 100K and million dollar coins would not be enjoying the spirited bidding that they are if the entire coin market was not expanding.
It's great to be able to afford true rarities, and if a person is able to do that by making high grade or top-pop moderns and selling them for a nice profit, maybe Legend and the like will have a few more customers... not that they seem to care. The point is that collecting & investing in coins are two different, but not mutually exclusive endeavors. >>
The responses to this are valid and good but here is another point to be added.
In the mid 1990's patterns were deader then dead. There was hardly any market making in patterns. In fact, dealers in patterns with one notable exception were quite frankly a harried bunch and tried to keep a very small inventory if that. I started to buy patterns at that time since the prices had fallen from the decade before and liked the designs very much. In some cases, I looked at patterns as the poor mans proof coins.
No dealer ever dared called patterns "investment coins." Some of them I paid over $5000 each. Definitely not investment coins.
Yet, I bought moderns right from the US Mint. Buffalo silver dollars. At $30 each (or was it $32 each?) they were definitely INVESTMENT COINS!
Agreed.
Also even two guys (gals) making $50,000 a year may have different budgets.
The single guy/gal with a very low overhead budget may be easily able to afford a $5000 coin while a guy/gal with kids (in College on top of it) and gasp! a spouse, might be over his head just to afford a $5 coin!
<< <i>JRocco:
Agreed.
Also even two guys (gals) making $50,000 a year may have different budgets.
The single guy/gal with a very low overhead budget may be easily able to afford a $5000 coin while a guy/gal with kids (in College on top of it) and gasp! a spouse, might be over his head just to afford a $5 coin! >>
You got that right oreville. You know whats funny---my oldest daughter, who I am spending almost a grand a month for her rent - not to even mention her college tuition , her car/insurance etc - tells me the other day that she saw a really nice one piece washer/dryer in Sears for ONLY $1500. She then went on to try to convince me that it would save her sooo much space in her cramped apartment (Remember who is paying the rent mind you). so could I cut her a check so she could have them "send one over" ---
Sheesh-- I am getting too old for this crap.