A question of scruples...please chime in!
downgoesfrazier
Posts: 1,515 ✭✭
Here's the scenario.
You coach at a high profile HS. You are a state-ranked club year in and year out. You have 5000 kids at your school. There is quite a bit of talent to work with, but really high expectations that go along with it. A week before try-out for this VERY hard team to make, you have three juniors get arrested for throwing eggs at passing motorists and underaged drinking and posession of alcohol. One is a 6'5 RHP that will likely be a #3 starter this year and the staff ace next year. One of your finest LH jr. hitters, and a LHP who has come with super high expectations and has failed to deliver thus far in the program. The LHP has likely failed in part to his very poor home situation with an alcoholic parent and a degree of real neglect.
The last two years the program has underachieved in large part to charachter issues and lack of leadership among the players themselves.
HERE'S THE QUESTION:
Would you whack these kids or take them on the team? Regardless of your decision, write a small paragraph to the A.D. that states your position and spin control.
dgf
You coach at a high profile HS. You are a state-ranked club year in and year out. You have 5000 kids at your school. There is quite a bit of talent to work with, but really high expectations that go along with it. A week before try-out for this VERY hard team to make, you have three juniors get arrested for throwing eggs at passing motorists and underaged drinking and posession of alcohol. One is a 6'5 RHP that will likely be a #3 starter this year and the staff ace next year. One of your finest LH jr. hitters, and a LHP who has come with super high expectations and has failed to deliver thus far in the program. The LHP has likely failed in part to his very poor home situation with an alcoholic parent and a degree of real neglect.
The last two years the program has underachieved in large part to charachter issues and lack of leadership among the players themselves.
HERE'S THE QUESTION:
Would you whack these kids or take them on the team? Regardless of your decision, write a small paragraph to the A.D. that states your position and spin control.
dgf
0
Comments
I'm clueless to how the rules are set up by the HS for eligibility to play baseball.
With respect to personal behavior, integrity, scholastics etc. Are there specific rules that say:
1. A student can not have been arrested for underage intoxication within the last year.
2. A student can not have been arrested for disturbing the peace, public misbehaviror etc. within the last year.
If not, then the behavior and eligibility are not mutually exclusive events?
This one should be interesting?
mike
As for the dumb kids... they're high school kids... they do dumb stuff... underage drinking is nothing new and it's not the worst thing in the world. It would be silly to think that 16 or 17 year old kids aren't going to drink though, but the kids need to know better than to be driving when they're drinking, and should be assigned community service as punishment. I would take them on the team, but the coach needs to lay down the law in a firm way to make sure additional bs like this doesn't happen, and the kids need to know the risk (they're automatically kicked off the team for another offense) outweighs the rewards of getting drunk and stupid.
Letting kids know what is expected of them before trying out, is the most important thing in sports. That way there are no excuses. It is a commitment. It is a privilige to play sports, not something to do because you have time to kill. If these things arent stressed to kids BEFORE incidents happen, the school will just be graduating a class of Dexter Manley's........
Punishment is deserved but the character and molding of these boys needs to be everyones first concern. Strong positive influences in a teenagers life will greatly define him as a man.
If it were my call they would be accepted on the team but banned from X amount of games. Practices would be extremely hard on them also. Extra laps, extra long workouts and go clean the urinals etc.
JMO, Bob C.
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88 Topps (5%) 10.00
Boys will be boys. I know that throwing eggs at a car is wrong, but I clocked the egg at 94 MPH ...
Just so I am clear, since the incident happened before tryouts and thus the season had yet to begin then no punishment regarding spring sports is warranted.
If these same kids are on a winter sport and that program is still on going then they should be thrown off that team (if any).
JMO
I have been on a team that 10 guys were thrown off of in HS and I have run a few local recreation programs in the town i live in. Notably the local pee wee football and babe ruth baseball leagues.
Steve
As a Junior (age 16-17), you know right from wrong. Throwing eggs at an occupied car in Virginia (for example) is a FELONY! (Code of Virginia 18.2-154).
Playing HS sports is a privilege. They are there for an education. Unfortunately, an added part of their education will involve the Criminal Justice system. They need to be held accountable for their actions and hopefully that will serve as an example for the next 3 knuckleheads. Perhaps their practice/playing time will better be spent at a substance abuse counselor's office, after their time in Juvenile Detention has been served.
Just my 2 cents...
Jim
Wow.
I think they should be allowed to play ball. I know I did dumb stuff when I was a kid and I don't know many kids that didn't.
Perhaps rather us writing a letter to the AD, the boys should have to do it. In the letter they should express why the actions they did were wrong and how they intend to make up for it. Also they should offer what consequences should come to them fro this instance and what should happen if any related happening should occur in the future.
I think that cutting them from the team will only lead to more rebellion and potentially cause far more harm to them than good. Perhaps a substance abuse program is one thing to consider, especially with the boy with family history of alcoholism. I don't think this would be a good thing to do if in fact they do not have a substance problem.
I don't envy your position but I think all things should be considered if the boys are not allowed to join the team.
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If this team is indeed VERY hard to make, then the PRESUMED drop off in overall team
talent/ability as a result of suspending these three individuals (my recommendation) will
be very minimal.
To Southerncards,
§18.2-154 requires that the occupant of the motor vehicle be, "put in peril." A prosecutor
would be hard pressed to convince a jury that the vehicles' occupants are in peril as a result
of a thrown egg.
However, in California we are less stringent.
California Vehicle Code §23110 only requires "any substance" by thrown and the vehicle
to be on a highway to constitute the comission of a misdemeanor. But if it is capable of
doing serious bodily harm...increase it to a felony.
A friend once threw a beer bottle at a moving vehicle...from his moving vehicle near
downtown L.A. Now that was something else.
/s/ JackWESQ
<< <i>Playing HS sports is a privilege. They are there for an education. Unfortunately, an added part of their education will involve the Criminal Justice system. They need to be held accountable for their actions and hopefully that will serve as an example for the next 3 knuckleheads. Perhaps their practice/playing time will better be spent at a substance abuse counselor's office, after their time in Juvenile Detention has been served.
Just my 2 cents...
Jim >>
I respectfully disagree with everything posted above. For a first time offense none of the above mentioned consequences would ever be handed out. Unless this is Russia. Is this HS in Russia Phil?
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ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Here's the complete statute:
18.2-154. Shooting at or throwing missiles, etc., at train, car, vessel, etc.; penalty.
Any person who maliciously shoots at, or maliciously throws any missile at or against, any train or cars on any railroad or other transportation company or any vessel or other watercraft, or any motor vehicle or other vehicles when occupied by one or more persons, whereby the life of any person on such train, car, vessel, or other watercraft, or in such motor vehicle or other vehicle, may be put in peril, is guilty of a Class 4 felony. In the event of the death of any such person, resulting from such malicious shooting or throwing, the person so offending is guilty of murder in the second degree. However, if the homicide is willful, deliberate and premeditated, he is guilty of murder in the first degree.
If any such act is committed unlawfully, but not maliciously, the person so offending is guilty of a Class 6 felony and, in the event of the death of any such person, resulting from such unlawful act, the person so offending is guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
If any person commits a violation of this section by maliciously or unlawfully shooting, with a firearm, at a conspicuously marked law-enforcement, fire or rescue squad vehicle, ambulance or any other emergency medical vehicle, the sentence imposed shall include a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of one year.
Zef - Are we sure that this is a first time offense? Let's assume that it is. I can only speak to what I have seen after dealings with the Juvenile court system in Virginia since 1997 but rest assured, in Virginia a felony conviction will result in some period of incarceration. As for the alcohol offenses, most judges will order substance abuse testing/counseling as well as the required loss of driving privileges. Been there, seen it, placed the cuffs on 'em.
<< <i>Zef - Are we sure that this is a first time offense? Let's assume that it is. I can only speak to what I have seen after dealings with the Juvenile court system in Virginia since 1997 but rest assured, in Virginia a felony conviction will result in some period of incarceration. As for the alcohol offenses, most judges will order substance abuse testing/counseling as well as the required loss of driving privileges. Been there, seen it, placed the cuffs on 'em. >>
While I could tell that you were a prosecutor you are taking Phil's question to the extreme.
Had they been charged with manslaughter I don't think that he would be here asking us if the boys should play ball. I know that in the legal system make assumptions or inferring anything is a taboo, but this isn't a courtroom. I can infer from the question asked that the boys caused no harm to anyone and aren't in a heep of trouble with the law. If they were, they're fate would likely been sealed and baseball would be crossed off the list.
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<< <i>Here's the scenario.
You coach at a high profile HS. You are a state-ranked club year in and year out. You have 5000 kids at your school. There is quite a bit of talent to work with, but really high expectations that go along with it. A week before try-out for this VERY hard team to make, you have three juniors get arrested for throwing eggs at passing motorists and underaged drinking and posession of alcohol.
HERE'S THE QUESTION:
Would you whack these kids or take them on the team?
dgf >>
This could have been edited down to look like the above..........Fact, Fact, Question
Why is this even in there:
"One is a 6'5 RHP that will likely be a #3 starter this year and the staff ace next year. One of your finest LH jr. hitters, and a LHP who has come with super high expectations....."
...is this supposed to be an influence in making my decision on the consequences???
as Jeff Green would say to Larry David "Man, that's a big bowl of wrong"
- Pittsburgh Maulers President Paul Martha, whose USFL club folded after one season.
action that places one in peril and (2) taking an action that MAY put one in peril. The
latter, like you said, essentially means, "anything can happen." Maybe I better stick
with civil litigation.
Cheers,
/s/ JackWESQ
P.S. I still maintain that the student should be suspended. I find it a bit ironic that they
were throwing eggs. Who knows, maybe the vehicle's occupants are eggshell plaintiffs
just waiting to file a lawsuit.
My guess is you have two teams for 11th and 12th graders. These guys start the season as JV backups and if they get should be eligible for increase PT and varsity games if they earn it.
you win the award for most useless response. If you need to ask why 6'5 RHP was in the description, you don't get the whole thing. Just quietly move on...next!
<< <i>To Down Goes Frazier,
If this team is indeed VERY hard to make, then the PRESUMED drop off in overall team
talent/ability as a result of suspending these three individuals (my recommendation) will
be very minimal. >>
I didn't want to give away my viewpoint at this time, but this is a big part of the equation--and a strong observation- in me selling my opinion to the AD involved. There are many very sound viewpoints here. Naturally, I've thought of all of these at various points in the process. I am very interested to see how strongly people feel about what was done and what should be done now. I like the passion it evokes in you guys!
Interesting to note, When I heard about the incident I felt a real calm. I just knew they were not my kids. I just knew. My guys just don't fundamentally THINK like kids that would do this. I couldn't picture any one of them pulling this stunt. When the names were spilled and written in the paper, I made it a point to tell my kids how special I think they are and that I believed in them before I knew who was arrested. All I knew was that 3 kids had been arrested from the area. Who's players they were remained a mystery for almost 48 hours.
Finally, the players were welcomed on the team and, as I understand it, were verbally repramanded and told to straighten up. I felt the punishment was awfully soft for endangering motorists lives on an expressway. Kids do dumb things--but this is really, really out of line and criminal. I am friends with the AD and have not shared my .02 on the thing yet and I may not as it is so sensitive. I think the kids should have been delegated to equipment management, field maintenance, and JV games only for the season. Next year, with a clean slate, I would have welcomed them back and said nothing more about it. I guarantee you this, if these would have been 3 "bubble" kids, they'd have been long gone. Poor message, in my opinion.
dgf
Maybe you have to be a lawyer to laugh but that's funny.
As to the main question, I think this is horrific that this awful criminals would do something like this. I know none of us ever drank at 16/17 or threw eggs (water balloons, rocks, smoke bombs, and who knows what else) at moving vehicles!
<< <i>maybe the vehicle's occupants are eggshell plaintiffs
Maybe you have to be a lawyer to laugh but that's funny.
As to the main question, I think this is horrific that this awful criminals would do something like this. I know none of us ever drank at 16/17 or threw eggs (water balloons, rocks, smoke bombs, and who knows what else) at moving vehicles!
I agree and I also agree that was lawyer humor.
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<< <i>As to the main question, I think this is horrific that this awful criminals would do something like this. I know none of us ever drank at 16/17 or threw eggs (water balloons, rocks, smoke bombs, and who knows what else) at moving vehicles!
I cant speak for everyone else but as for me, I never drank until I was 21, threw anything at moving cars or smoked pot. I wasnt a goody goody, I just didnt see a need to break the law or be a troublemaker. Now that I'm firmly entrenched in my law enforcement career, I'm happy that I didnt do dumb stuff like that.
P.S. BTW, I didn't mention anything about smoking pot; you added that one.
<< <i>Southern- You have led a cleaner life than most of us. I would say the vast majority of us did all the aforementioned and then some. Oh the memories....
P.S. BTW, I didn't mention anything about smoking pot; you added that one. >>
Did you not inhale?
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