I vote for the 15 point scale

ColonialCoinUnion

In the form of a return to adjectival grading.

Same holders, same graders, just list the grade on the tag as one of the following 15 non-proof choices:

Gem Unc.
Choice Unc.
Unc.
Ch. AU
AU.
Ch. XF
XF
Ch VF
VF
F
VG
G
AG
F
P

What would that do to the market? How would it impact the value of your coins?

Julian

I agree totally!!!!

mirabela

Insofar as the value of my coins is tied somewhat to what it says on the holder, I think it might screw me up some, because my MS64's (sort of my favorite value unc grade) would turn into "choice uncs" & be hard to market for better than 63 prices... there's a big difference between average choice unc & hairline near-gem.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>Insofar as the value of my coins is tied somewhat to what it says on the holder, I think it might screw me up some, because my MS64's (sort of my favorite value unc grade) would turn into "choice uncs" & be hard to market for better than 63 prices... there's a big difference between average choice unc & hairline near-gem. >>



I disagree. The market does not apply these numerical grades very consistently today, so the value of your coin is tied neatly to whether or not the potential buyer sees it as PQ, non-PQ, a tweener, an upgrade candidate, an overgraded dog, etc.

All of that would continue to be true in my adjectival world.

mirabela

I dunno. My favorite kind of unc in a slab is a 64 that is almost a 65 -- you know, that 1-in-10 shot upgrade kind of coin that nobody is actually going to bother cracking out, but that is almost nice enough. In my experience selling this sort of thing, the number on the slab established a somewhat fixed starting point for pricing, above which we are talking about the premium for the coin being particularly clean & nice to look at. In your world, that point backs up to "choice unc" bid, which I don't find very advantageous.

Bottom line, a coin is the coin it is, and buyers & sellers who look at lots of coins will always find ground to meet on. It wouldn't destroy the hobby for me or anything.

In a way, it is how we all buy and sell raw coins. Any one of us can tell a ballpark 60 from a ballpark 63 from a ballpark 65, right? Ditto the circ grades.

Barndog

I like it and catalog more than 90% of my collection that way.

ColonialCoinUnion

Greater precision than this is not possible on a consistent basis anyway. So why pretend that it is?

mirabela

<< <i>Greater precision than this is not possible on a consistent basis anyway. So why pretend that it is >>



Maybe our disagreement boils down to the word "consistent." Let's suppose that the graders get it "right" in our 70-point system only 7 or 8 times out of ten -- while that still leaves room for some alarming possibilities, I still think it works in my favor as a small-time collector.

ziggy29

<< <i>In a way, it is how we all buy and sell raw coins. Any one of us can tell a ballpark 60 from a ballpark 63 from a ballpark 65, right? Ditto the circ grades. >>

There will always be "liners." But with fewer classifications, there are probably far fewer liners.

For sake of argument, let's assume Unc., choice Unc and Gem Unc roughly correspond to 60, 63 and 65. Some coins that are solid 64s but just miss 65 would be liner coins. Ditto for many of today's 62s.

But there would be fewer of these cases.

Personally I think it's splitting hairs to have 11 different mint state and Proof grades. I know this was done because of market grading and huge spreads between grades. But I also know that people who know superior quality for the grade will bid higher. Most of the coins I go after in my type set wind up selling for 61/62 money because enough people recognize that superior coins for the grade should get a premium in the marketplace -- and they do.

But the bottom line is that with the proliferation of TPGs and the grades they already put on coins, that genie has left the bottle and the train has left the station.

Baley

so all Gem Unc's are equal to each other?

Seen one Fine chain cent, seen em all?

You could return to adjectival grading, but you'd also need adjectives to describe the strike, luster, contact marks, "rub", wear, surface preservation and toning, and overall eye appeal.

try as you might to take away 'numbers' for measurements of attributes, folks understand numbers and will find a way to put them back in.

Julian

There will be less "liners" but there will always be one coin that is nicer than another.

If two people see it that way it will bring more at auction. If a buyer and seller see it that way, the coin will bring more in a private sale.

Fewer categories do not mean lower prices.

Numismatics is for collectors. Collectors pay more for coins that they like.

There may still be a place for the TPG's. They can still authenticate. They could also add other subjective qualifiers, as well, similar to what is being done with currency.

Baley

If two people see it that way it will bring more at auction. If a buyer and seller see it that way, the coin will bring more in a private sale.

Right. Just like "big" coins trade at prices somewhat independent of the "grade number" when bought or auctioned.

but "regular" coins that trade somewhat "sight unseen" in efficient electronic and "quick trade" markets like shows and on ebay, benefit greatly from having "commodity" grading divided into 70 points, plus designations like cam, and certain full strike designations.

edit: in fact, some of us are in favor of allowing half points between MS64 and 65, and between 65 and 66.

291fifth

It isn't going to happen. There is too much money tied up in the MS grades and money is what grading is really all about.

RYK

I would have no problem with the 15 point scale as proposed.

tradedollarnut

Greater precision than this is not possible on a consistent basis anyway. So why pretend that it is?

I disagree. I think that uncirculated coins could just as easily [and consistently] be sorted into 4 or 5 categories as to 3 categories.

TheRaven

I think for circulated grades this is how it should be

I question only 3 mint state grades however

Unc
Choice Unc
Gem Unc
Superb Unc should atleast be added

kalch23

Why would I want a dealer telling me that this "UNC" coin would be a 62 by the old standards or that this "Choice UNC" used to be in a 64 holder...