Has anyone heard of any "RIP" of an elderly widow's deceased husband's coin collection....

SanctionII

......... (say at 10% or less of bid) being challenged in court as a form of "Financial Elder Abuse"?

I know that in my state, California, "Elder Abuse" is a growing phenomena, including "Financial Elder Absue". Most cases involve real estate transactions with unsophisticated, cash poor, house rich, seniors who get ripped off by predators that seek to suck the equity out of the senior's homes. I have no doubt that "Financial Elder Abuse" claims and litigation can and will easily apply to cases where valuable coins owned by unsophisticated seniors are RIPPED by others.

In the past I have heard of a case from a long, long time ago where a seven to eight figure collection assembled by a husband collector was acquired from a widow after her husband died for a low six figure price. This to me would be a RIP and would likey be Financial Elder Abuse. If something like that happened today in a state where Elder Abuse laws are on the books, the person who Rips the coins is playing with fire and could end up dealing with expensive civil litigation and criminal prosecution and possible jail time.

If you have heard of any RIP transaction where the seller, after the fact, claimed "Financial Elder Abuse", please give us the details.

KoinDawg

Not coins but they do it all the time with a guy's HAM radio gear. The widow typically knows diddly about the stuff or even its worth.

itsnotjustme

And be prepared to testify in court!

Barry

Check with the Coin Posse™

TAClough

Is Laura involved?

Tim

66Tbird

Ham gear, boy you got that right. Very common, almost a given. It's one of the reasons I'm not in the hobby anymore.

13PacesEast

I thought it was called CherryPicking.

Bear

No RIP, its just that the dealers offer for the widows hoard

is value challanged.

Barry

I see ham gear listings all the time from friends or club members of the Silent Key ham. The wife doesn't know ANY of her deceased husband's ham friends who could help?

BlindedByEgo

Counselor,

There is a fairly large retail storefront operation in the greater Los Angeles area that has a very bad reputation of doing this... I have heard through the local dealer grapevine absolute horror stories about them (unnamed for liability reasons). I actually saw a 60-ish man offered and take $0.10 a piece for a old flat coffee can full of IHC's from HIS father's garage (I was evesdropping from the next booth over, in there to buy some gold Eagles)

Another story, second hand, has to do with a walk-in "client" wanting to sell a Gold typeset (this person had 3). They were put into a private room with an "expert" who looked at the Capitol holder, told them that they could go 10% over melt... When the customer said no thanks, the salesman left and brought in the "closer", who argued with them, derided the coins, and told them if they went anyplace else that they would be lucky to get 10% under melt... And that they would be in danger being seen leaving the shop with their gold. This was a 78 year old widow and her sister. Luckily, they left.

My friend, who wound up buying one of the sets, said that all of the coins in the set he bought were original surfaces, choice to gem coins. He felt that he got a "rip" at 20% back of sheet.

The same friend has also expert witnessed in a couple of insurance cases... The insurance companies can be almost as bad as the shady dealers, IMO.

CoinHusker

Garage sales are full of "stuff" spouses are trying to sell after the loss of loved ones. Wives selling fishing, hunting, golf items, collections at WAY below value, husbands selling "collectibles" the same way. It doesn't have "value" to them so they unload it. Antiques Roadshow is made from stuff as such.

rays

The owner of the Long Beach Expo has been acused of elder abuse:

Case against art dealers hinges on technicality

By LESLIE DINABERG
South Coast Beacon

The fate of a pair of local art dealers may rest on Judge Frank Ochoa’s ruling on a legal technicality that will determine whether the People versus James O’Mahoney and Ronald Gillio goes to trial.

After a lengthy pretrial hearing during which they were accused of taking advantage of the late Josef Muench, an internationally known photographer, the judge is expected to rule whether case law regarding “theft from an elder by a caretaker” is applicable. The more broadly defined elder-abuse statues were not in effect when the incident involving transferring of the rights to Muench’s photographs took place in 1996.

During closing arguments on Dec. 15, Deputy District Attorney Gordon Auchincloss argued that Muench, who was 92 when he met the defendants, suffered from dementia and that “it was obvious this man could not handle his own business affairs.”

Characterizing the defense arguments that the art dealers ended up losing money on the deal as “like saying that a drug dealer that went out and bought $10,000 worth of heroin and sold it for $5,000 isn’t guilty of dealing drugs because he didn’t make a profit,” Auchincloss made a number of allegations against the two, including claims that the original agreement with Muench was forged.

Admitting that the case against Gillio was more problematic than the one against O’Mahoney, Auchincloss nonetheless contended, “Both defendants should be held to answer as charged.”

“Lack of evidence is not evidence,” said Stephen Balash, Gillio’s attorney, who argued that the case against his client did not hold up to scrutiny.

O’Mahoney’s attorney said, “In the area of his photography, Muench was as sharp as a tack.” He also stressed that his client’s relationship to Muench was not that of a caretaker, prompting Judge Ochoa to request a brief on the matter from the District Attorney. Ochoa is expected to rule on whether the case will go to trial today at 1:30 p.m.

SanctionII

I had forgotten the case involving the artwork that was peddled to Mr. Gillio's company.

It is much more difficult to prevail in claims against downstream transferrees of the property. The person who initially acquired same from the "Elder" is the person that is the easiest to deal with in the terms of proving the case.

It would be very interesting to get a copy of the legal briefs filed in any criminal or civil cases covering this artwork. These briefs would give detailed descriptions of the facts of the case and would dicsuss applicable law.