Article on "moderns" on Doug Winter's raregoldcoins.com site

RYK

Yes, you read the title correctly.

Maybe DW wants to become a market maker?

Reece

Yea, right!!

Russ

Now, THAT is an excellent dissertation. Well spoken, well articulated and without the need to belittle moderns collectors. Kudos!



<< <i>Abstract Expressionist art ... looks like squiggles on a canvas that a cranky three year old drew before his afternoon nap. >>



I like that, too. Of course, I had to edit it a bit.

Russ, NCNE

Coinosaurus

Doug writes, "In the meantime, why don’t we “classic coin lovers” and their “modern coin” counterparts just try to get along?"

I think the problem is that people WANT to fight

Russ

You know, now that I think about it, you'd almost think that maybe he might have read a certain thread here and an idea popped in to his head.

Russ, NCNE

DHeath

What a smart article.

Coxe

I don't want to fight or trash modern collectors. But I don't want to see people lose money they cannot afford to lose in what may be a delusion. Modern ultragrade Mint seignorage compares to classic rarities like photos and prints compare to old master paintings. The old masterpieces are out of reasonable budgets of many folks. Photos are more realistic and prints can be more perfect and have a defined market. All of them can look great on a wall. Some of the newer material will be much more collectible than most of its contemprary brethren (like the prints) but will have a hard time comparing to the masterpieces. We don't need a superiority pissing contest to sort this out. Plain and simple, high-grade moderns are far superior in quality to nearly all classic coins and one can much more easily, within a defined and reasonable budget, develop a complete and matched (by grade, ...) set among them. Classic rarities will continue to lead the pack soundly in terms of absolute rarity and valuation scale (and likely appreciation). No matter how hard you try, nothing will make a SBA dollar of any grade the equivalent of a mint state 1884-S Morgan dollar, unless someone has a bag of 1884-S hidden out there. Conversely, there is no way an 1884-S Morgan will be as attractive (despite SBA's countenance) as a typical SBA dollar.

Russ

<< <i>I don't want to fight or trash modern collectors. But I don't want to see people lose money they cannot afford to lose in what may be a delusion. >>



Far more money is lost in hyped up generic gold than in moderns. Let's start a thread bashing Saint and Liberty collectors.

Russ, NCNE

RegistryCoin

This classic coin dealer taking "the high road", fair and unbiased, is like a breath of fresh air.

Coinhusker1

From the article:



<< <i>The modern coin market is a developing entity and it will take time for two-way markets to develop. At this point, EBay and Teletrade must be considered the largest modern coins dealers. No, they don’t offer the warm and fuzzy customer service that Douglas Winter Numismatics does, but most collectors of modern coinage don’t want this “frill.” >>



This guy "gets it".

If Ms. Sperber would try to learn a little bit about the modern market instead of continually demonstrating her lack of knowledge of said market, perhaps she will "get it" too.

DHeath

Coxe, the real danger for classic collectors is buying a marginal coin for the grade in an up market. TDN put up a thread not long ago about a coin that moved $20k on a reholder. How'd you like to be holding that anchor when the boat went down. That would buy a load of Kennedys.

Coxe

DHeath, I wholeheartedly agree that is the top danger in this market. Folks building registry sets should heed that. Would hate to be full of MS64's in MS65 holders for the sake of outduking someone else in points. Bragging rights ain't worth the beating they will probably take later.

cladking

Say what you will about the article but he manages to say what he feels without
buying or burying moderns. That's pretty classy in my book.

RYK

Now, THAT is an excellent dissertation. Well spoken, well articulated and without the need to belittle moderns collectors.

What a smart article.

Say what you will about the article but he manages to say what he feels without
buying or burying moderns. That's pretty classy in my book.

This classic coin dealer taking "the high road", fair and unbiased, is like a breath of fresh air.


This is getting concerning. My favorite rare gold coin dealer is getting accolades from the The Four Horsemen of Moderns™. Now, if Keets jumps in and lavishes praise, I will know for certain that apocalypse is upon us.

rays

From Mr. Winters commentary:


<< <i>And, to be honest about it, is a Chain Cent or a Capped Bust Right half dollar a really “beautiful” coin from an aesthetic point of view? >>



Here is an S4 chain on the auction block for Wed 3/8 at Stacks:




This is one of the most beautiful designs of the entire US federal series, in my opinion.

RYK

<< And, to be honest about it, is a Chain Cent or a Capped Bust Right half dollar a really “beautiful” coin from an aesthetic point of view? >>

Here is an S4 chain on the auction block for Wed 3/8 at Stacks:

This is one of the most beautiful designs of the entire US federal series, in my opinion.

Well, just goes to show, you can't please everyone.

ziggy29

"Numismorons."

Russ

<< <i>"Numismorons." >>



In case somebody passing by doesn't read the column, I'd just like to note that he's referring to Morgan collectors.

Russ, NCNE

Hobbyist

<< <i>From Mr. Winters commentary:


<< <i>And, to be honest about it, is a Chain Cent or a Capped Bust Right half dollar a really “beautiful” coin from an aesthetic point of view? >>


Here is an S4 chain on the auction block for Wed 3/8 at Stacks:

This is one of the most beautiful designs of the entire US federal series, in my opinion. >>



But, I believe I have read before, and even from contemporary papers, that the design was quite disliked when issued...both the obverse and the reverse.

keets

At this point, EBay and Teletrade must be considered the largest modern coins dealers.

as i said before, Russ nailed these two along with Heritage very early in the "Name Three......" thread and was dismissed. the conclusion i draw is that either Russ was right or Mr. Winter is wrong.
if Russ is right, the responsible thing for Legend to do is acknowledge the fact.
if Mr. Winter is wrong, RYK needs to be beat about the head and shoulder area with a fungo bat.

tradedollarnut

Nice try - but: A coin dealer is not necessarily a market maker. An auction house is NOT a market maker.

keets

R and I Coins.
MNM Coins.
PocketChange.

three dealers that fit the very slim description, but i'm sure you'll come back and denounce them in some fashion. you guys have an opinion which is inflexible for whatever reason. one thing i've learned from the whole ordeal is that the two markets, for classic coins and for modern coins, function differently and independently of one another.

the primary cause as i see it is that there is no solid pricing sheet in the form and substance of the GreySheet that a dealer can use for Modern issues. coupled with the fact that the populations of graded coins change faster and influence the prices paid for both raw and holdered coins to a greater degree, and most dealers can't cope with buy/sell spreads that keep them flush. overall, the numbers(read: $$$$$$) available with modern issues mean that a dealer needs to work with more volume in regards to total number of sales, a number tied directly to overall profit from a percentage standpoint.

it's probable that members at this forum could assemble a useful "GreySheet" for moderns, but that would equate to giving up an acquired advantage. the dealers who live and die with modern coinage do their own legwork and know what to buy/sell for and who to buy from/sell to. it's really no different than how classic dealers like Legend do things, perhaps just a bit more on a grassroots level. less is done to help the modern dealers by a network which is already in place for more traditional buying and selling.

keets

what about James Sego??

keets

there is almost certainly no dealer that would fit your definition that's close to the size of Legend Numismatics. there are many more than you'd imagine, though, which are small dealers making a comfortable living. as a group they count as a considerable number in the hobby.

i'm curious as to how often the GreySheet changes, if it ever has, with regard to when they decide to add issues to their list. i really believe that the greatest market impediment is readily available buy/sell spreads.

RedTiger

What I don't understand is the antipathy modern collectors/dealers have towards the term market maker. I really don't. If there were CCE (Certified Coin Exchange) bids that were honored on moderns, a lot more dealers would consider carrying them in inventory, a lot more collectors would consider buying coins dated post-1964 that cost more than $200 (gold/platinum excluded). This would be a great boon to the segment.

In the time it takes for a coin to go through Teletrade or Heritage, the market for a coin may move a great deal. The fees on Teletrade have gotten to the point where I will not buy or sell there unless it is the only game in town. Ebay isn't really a place that most collectors are comfortable with when trading $10k coins or even $1k coins.

Maybe that will be a positive out of all this flaming. Some enterprising dealer(s) will see the opportunity and answer the call. It will be a good thing. Smaller buy/sell spreads, more places to buy and sell, more collectors interested in the segment, would be some of the benefits.

Longacre

FYI for Mr. Winter-- I used to work at Pepsi. The president of Coke wouldn't be caught dead even muttering the word Pepsi in mixed company. In fact, in all of our meetings and internal correspondence, we referred to Coke as the "Red Company". It was in bad taste to even mention the C word.

As for the article, it is nice to see that a major Southern gold dealer is being open minded to moderns.

morgannut2

<< <i>Nice try - but: A coin dealer is not necessarily a market maker. An auction house is NOT a market maker. >>



TDN's only partly right IMHO--a true market maker is commonly associated with a liquid auction that will guarantee financial performance according to set rules and a cash bonded relationship. In the 19th Century the term applied to the Stock Exchanges which acted as auction houses, and the "specialists" or "market makers" who provided liquidity. For example Hetty Green (mother of the Col. Green, the coin collector) made a market through her bonded minions for out- of- the- money Railroad Stocks/bonds etc. at great discounts. With todays big auctions-- you can't have a similar real "market maker" as they are currently set up, due to illiquidity

There really are no market makers in coins because there's no liquid DAILY market auction (at Heritage etc) as with bonds/stocks exchanges-- essentially coin dealers can and will stop buying any series of coin, at any price, if they get spooked because the auctions are totally illiquid ( & slow). Now old Heddy would buy all the way down and because companies had real income and assets (they're INVESTMENTS, AS OPPOSED TO COINS)-- then strip assets, or build them up and resell--- making a big profit for her.

The point is this applies to all coins, not just moderns. If dealers have no liquidity in a down market, no banker in their right mind will lend against the ill-defined assets or zero income flow. Dealers in coins may think there are market makers--but they are just making the coin bazaar appear more sophisticated than it is.

fc

i think doug must be bored to write about modern coins.
something to entertain the peasants while he waits for baltimore/boston.

RYK

i think doug must be bored to write about modern coins.

Yes, the idle mind is the devil's playground.

CarlWohlforth

Some people are rational, tolerant and diplomatic. Doug Winter appears to be one. He understands the pitfalls of collecting condition rarities whether classic or modern. He understands the developing nature of the modern market. That is a breath of fresh air from someone who clearly prefers and believes in classic coins.

RedTiger

<< <i>...
The point is this applies to all coins, not just moderns. If dealers have no liquidity in a down market, no banker in their right mind will lend against the ill-defined assets or zero income flow. Dealers in coins may think there are market makers--but they are just making the coin bazaar appear more sophisticated than it is. >>



Again, I can only shake my head at the level of antipathy. It is not complicated, all a firm has to do is post a bid and an ask on a coin or a series of coins on the CCE and that firm is a market maker for that coin or series. Yes, everyone involved understands that the bids will be lowered or even pulled in a downturn. However, even one dealer doing this much on moderns during normal times would be a benefit for everyone involved in the segment.

cladking

<< <i>

It is not complicated, all a firm has to do is post a bid and an ask on a coin or a series of coins on the CCE and that firm is a market maker for that coin or series. Yes, everyone involved understands that the bids will be lowered or even pulled in a downturn. However, even one dealer doing this much on moderns during normal times would be a benefit for everyone involved in the segment. >>



You are, of course, right.

However, two points that might not be truly relevant in the "other thread" but are here: One, that
there are effectively bid and ask prices for some moderns. There are few, but most modern dealers
are often in need of some specific coins. Second, while there are real market makers in classics, there
aren't so many as is apparent. Some of the advertised bids are not really honored because they want
to heavily cherry pick anything they buy and some of what they sell are upgrades. Even if their stock
isn't upgraded it can end up being sold at premiums.

You're right that market makers in moderns would strenghten and legitimize these market in many
peoples' eyes, but it will probably be a few more years before the market is of sufficient size to sup-
port even one market-maker. There is a lot of money in these coins now days and there are market
makers of sorts in the types of moderns which sell in sufficient volume. Look at AZ Coin and Jewel
and several other large outfits that do a lot of business in this area at small markups.

The simple fact is that this is still a small niche market that probably gets a lot more attention than is
really warranted because so many people despise the coins. It also gets a lot of attention because
there are so many newbies dabbling in it. Most of the newbies are in ultramoderns but moderns are
attracting a lot of spillover. (as are classics).

From a collector standpoint "we don't need no stinkin' dalers" seems to be the consensus view while
from the financial standpoint "Who needs dealers while the market is growing?" seems to work well.

Trime

Nice friendly message from Doug who is one of the most astute numismatists and dealers around.
No reason not to get along. Remember selling coins can be a profitable business and collecting coins is not a very smart pursuit. If you jkeep that in mind you know what you are doing.
BTW: Is this form used for marketing?
Yes certainly by "marketmakers" and "wanabees".
The marketing styles are different.
Many of you may not like the in your face approach of some of our famous posters but you may not be afraid to own one of their coins.
Other dealer/posters appear to be warm and cuddely; Some of them are genuinely warm and some very honest and fair.

RYK

Remember selling coins can be a profitable business and collecting coins is not a very smart pursuit.

...and collecting coins is not a very smart pursuit.

Huh? Typo or are you calling me stupid?

TheRaven

coin collecting is not a smart pursuit?

Russ

<< <i>coin collecting is not a smart pursuit? >>



Just ask any non-collector. Most of them think we're all crazy.

Russ, NCNE

RYK

Just ask any non-collector. Most of them think we're all crazy.

Marty just made $4000 on some Ike thingy. If that's crazy, sign me up for the nut house.

Russ

<< <i>Marty just made $4000 on some Ike thingy. If that's crazy, sign me up for the nut house. >>



Bad example. Marty actually is crazy.

Russ, NCNE

Trime

"Coin collecting is not a very smart pursuit."
"Ae you calling me stupid?"

If you think you are elgible maybe so.