Cards or on-line poker??
eyebone
Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭
Don't know how appropriate this is, but does anybody else out there play poker on-line?
I had a very nice run going on party poker, but have given over half of it back in last two or three weeks.
Think I am going to stick with sports cards henceforth--the poker is simply too tough on me emotionally.
Eyebone
I had a very nice run going on party poker, but have given over half of it back in last two or three weeks.
Think I am going to stick with sports cards henceforth--the poker is simply too tough on me emotionally.
Eyebone
"I'm not saying I'm the best manager in the world, but I'm in the top one." Brian Clough
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Comments
<< <i>Don't know how appropriate this is, but does anybody else out there play poker on-line?
I had a very nice run going on party poker, but have given over half of it back in last two or three weeks.
Think I am going to stick with sports cards henceforth--the poker is simply too tough on me emotionally.
Eyebone >>
I play quite a bit, and I believe Eagle Eye Kid plays his share as well. A few other posters who have PM'ed me have also told me they enjoy playing online.
My worst session, I lost $1,500 in 45 minutes playing $5/$10. I threw up, and decided that my health was more important than a few extra bucks. I rolled all my poker bankroll into a few large lots on eBay and some local collections I aquired through ads in the paper and now my addictive personality is focused on sports cards. There are comparable highs (a big pull, a card that grades out higher than you think it will), but there really is nothing in card collecting that compares to the lows in poker, which obviously is a good thing.
If you're playing low stakes for fun, I can see how that would be a lot of fun. After playing up in stakes like I did ($15/$30 at one point) it's too dificult for me to take a $15 dollar pot seriously so I've basically ruined online poker for myself. If you need some advice, hand charts, or a good story or two, just ask. If you're a break even player, you can make a couple hundred bucks chasing bonuses and getting rakeback. Good luck.
2004 Tommie Harris SPX Printing Plate (White Whale will pay top $$$)
1994 SP Football Die Cuts PSA 10s
I enjoy it very much, tho I know it's not the same as playing for real $, since people play stupid for free.
I do have a friend who lost his shirt playing...
Mike "the mouth" Matusow from TV ranked 9th in the WSOP this year and won a million bucks - he told how he lost it all - mostly from on-line poker.
So, if a pro can lose his shirt - you know a dummy like me could get his clock cleaned.
If someone had the discipline to win modestly and go home and stop when the cards run cold...
They would be OK - but how many people would do this?
If I had the $, I would like to play regularly - but I can't afford to lose, so I can't afford to win.
mike
If I want to play for real money, I go to the local card room in a bowling alley where they play $2-$10. You can bet up to $10 every round so there's not nearly as much crap play as you get in a $3/$6 game.
Went there last weekend and won $187 in 40 minutes. And, yep, I quite while ahead.
Tabe
<< <i>Since it's still illegal to play online for real money in the US >>
I don't understand?
There's a money side and a practice side to Pacific Poker?
What am I missing?
mike
I missed a seat at the Aussie Millions, their equivilent of the WSOP, by 1 seat. I wons several sattelites after a $10 buy in and was one seat away from an all expense paid trip plus the $10k entry to the tourney. Tops 4 got in and I was 5th. I still won $4400 bu I was not happy as I lost on a real bad beat.
Anywhoo, you are not alone. There are tons of guys here who play and even more on the open forum. I actually haven't played in nearly 2 years, I decided a real job was better hours and mor secure income. I love and know the game though so if you have any questions I would be more than happy to try and assist.
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I'm playing right now.
It's the easiest and hardest game in the world!
mike
<< <i>Zef
I'm playing right now.
It's the easiest and hardest game in the world!
mike >>
It sure is. I love it.
My Auctions
Brent
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2004 Cracker Jack Master
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<< <i>I play a couple of times a week. I limit myself to $50 per week so I don't delude myself into thinking I can make REAL money at it. I am up less than $100 in a year.
Brent >>
Hi Brent
Thanx for your sincerity.
mike
<< <i>Went there last weekend and won $187 in 40 minutes. And, yep, I quite while ahead.
Tabe >>
That's a fallacious concept. Whether you finish ahead in any given session has no bearing on whether or not you're an overall winner. If you're game is +EV, you'll win- if it's not, you'll lose. And all the 'session management' you throw at the game won't change that.
FWIW, you guys are talking waaayyy too much about 'quitting winners'. It doesn't matter when you quit if you have an edge. The absolute best game I ever played in was a 10-20 at Harrah's in Gary, Indiana, and I lost $1200 in that game. But I'd play it again in a flash. Conversely, I won a ton of money playing in the 10-20 rock garden at Mt. Clemens in the late '90's, but I have zero desire to go back to that game.
The thing everyone should be real concerned about re: online play is the proliferation of bots and bonus hustlers that have really hurt the game quality at the lower limits. These games aren't half as profitable as they were in 2003 before the 'poker boom'.
<< <i>The site I use for sports betting also has poker rooms. I usually stick to 1/2 PL Omaha. /q]
God I love that game. I mostly play limit hold em, since that's what I'm best at, but there's nothing in the world more fun then a fired up PL Omaha game.
I was way ahead of the game moneywise when I quit playing high stakes hold-em full-time 14 years ago.
Of course, back then, it wasn't played over the internet, it was all face to face.
Played 100+ hours per week for years. Not good for relationships with friends ... and more importantly ... with family.
No longer have any interest in it, but I don't like the idea of partners,
or heaven forbid dealers, being able to instant message the cards they've seen thru the internet.
Be carefull ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Could you sum it up a two sentences in terms that a nonpoker player could understand?
mike
<< <i>Boo
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Could you sum it up a two sentences in terms that a nonpoker player could understand?
mike >>
Sure Mike.
What I'm saying is that the idea of quitting winners is really just an artificial time constraint that has no relationship to your long term success in the game. Say you're playing and you're up $100-- so you quit. Well, what does it matter if you quit now if you're going to play again later? You'll just put that money back into play, so whether you keep playing now, or wait a week until you play again, doesn't affect your long term results.
Think of a casino. A casino has an edge in every (no, not every, but for the sake of argument bear with me) game they offer. But the casino never 'quits winners'. They just keep playing, 24/7, until they have all the money. The same mentality is adopted by every serious poker player. If you're on top of your game, and have nothing else you need to do, you should just keep playing whether you're ahead or stuck.
The idea of quitting winners is part of a fallacious set of gambling concepts knows collectively as 'money management' . The idea is that you can somehow neutralize or overcome the house edge if you quit after winning a certain amount, or only put so much in play in a given session, yada yada. But if the game has a house edge you will eventually lose all your money if you play long enough, and there's nothing you can do about it. By the same token if you're the best poker player at a table you can expect, eventually, to end up with every single chip if you play long enough. You'll hit bumps in the road along the way, but those bumps should never be enough to convince you to quit the game.
<< <i>I was way ahead of the game moneywise when I quit playing high stakes hold-em full-time 14 years ago.
Of course, back then, it wasn't played over the internet, it was all face to face.
Played 100+ hours per week for years. Not good for relationships with friends ... and more importantly ... with family.
No longer have any interest in it, but I don't like the idea of partners,
or heaven forbid dealers, being able to instant message the cards they've seen thru the internet.
Be carefull ... >>
100 hours per week? Uh, no thanks.
BTW, as a fellow veteran of the green baize wars I think it's funny that a guy can now make $30 an hour playing as low as $1-$2, whereas you used to have to play $15-$30 or bigger to make that kind of money. And you can do it with a fraction of the variance. Remember those six week losing streaks? A thing of
the past. All hail the Internet!
Dirty Poker news article
If you are one of the millions of people who've taken up online poker, there's a pretty good chance you are being cheated on a regular basis according to a man who may be the most successful gambling cheat ever. Richard Marcus knew every trick in the book when it came to fleecing the casinos. He retired without ever getting caught and is now warning poker players about what they are up against. Marcus spoke exclusively with George Knapp of the I-Team.
There's an old saying about poker. If you can't spot the sucker at the table, then the sucker is you. Considering how much money is involved in poker these days, Richard Marcus says it's entirely possible someone will shoot him for revealing that poker, despite its popularity, is crooked. It's rigged, both the online games and the live tournaments in Las Vegas casinos. He's written a new book called Dirty Poker in which he lays out the sordid details. Here are a few of them.
Richard Marcus said, "I am not an angel. I'm not a saint. I'm a thief. I'm a cheater." Richard Marcus is one of -- if not the most successful gambling cheats in history. For 25 years, he prowled casinos in Las Vegas and around the world looking for ways to separate the house from its money. Craps, roulette, blackjack, and baccarat were his best games. He raked in a bundle but is cagey about how much.
He left the racket a few years ago but stays in touch with his fellow cheaters from the old days, many of whom now have a new line of work -- poker players. Just a few years ago, casinos were taking out their poker rooms so they could install more slot machines, but suddenly, poker is hot. At any given time there's a tournament or two on television. Players have become celebrities. Celebrities have become players. Hottest of all is online poker, now a $12 billion industry, even though it isn't quite legal in the U.S. And with so many new players pulling up a chair, widespread cheating is inevitable, says Marcus.
"Online is just a river full of suckers. If you don't cheat, you're a sucker online," he said. How is it done, and how does he know? Because some of the same techniques that worked in the casinos works online too. One of them is an oldie but goodie, collusion, where players secretly work as a team. "They use multiple Internet providers, multiple IP's, different accounts with different addresses. You could be sitting in China and I could be sitting in Las Vegas and we're working together."
Marcus says some cheats set up a room with eight or more computers and pretend to be eight different people, but it's one person who sees the cards in all of the other hands, a huge advantage. The use of so-called bots, short for robots, poker playing computer software, is also more common than online companies want to admit. The Internet sites use their own bots to fill up tables at times. One company was shut down because its bots had the ability to see everyone else's cards. The Internet poker industry assures players that bots simply aren't sophisticated enough to beat humans. Marcus scoffs.
"The online sites say they can monitor everyone's play and know if someone is using a bot. That's a bunch of bullcrap," he said. But the biggest threat to the integrity of online poker comes from hackers. Marcus says he knows computer whiz's that managed to penetrate the security software of online sites, which allows the hackers to see their opponents' hole cards. Not many people can pull this off, but he says he's seen it done and that hackers will always find a way to defeat defense mechanisms. Marcus thinks the writing is on the wall for online poker.
Richard Marcus said, "I'll tell you right now that in ten years there won't be any more online poker because of the cheating with robots and hackers. The honest players will see they can't win anymore. Before it ends, it will be computers against computers. You're gonna have a whole online table and there's not going to be one human playing. I'm not kidding."
Marcus advises that anyone who plays online poker should stick to the small stakes games because the cheaters are less likely to go after small pots.
Tuesday at 5 p.m., Marcus really unloads with some nasty secrets about Las Vegas poker rooms and some of the biggest names in gambling. His new book Dirty Poker, won't be released until March 15th.
2nd page
Trust everyone, but cut the cards. The old saying is still good advice for new poker players. One of the world's most successful card cheats, retired thief Richard Marcus, says while poker is riding a wave of popularity and glamour it's still just as crooked as in the Old West because of online cheater syndicates. Marcus spoke exclusively with George Knapp of the I-Team.
Marcus said, "Somebody might kill me, George. Somebody might kill me." For 25 years, Richard Marcus was the smoothest casino cheat in town, maybe in the world. He can still walk into a gambling hall, even into a poker room, and not draw much attention, but that's about to change.
"It's about time somebody said what's really going on," he said. What's going on, according to this self-described thief, is a whole lot of cheating. Poker, Marcus says, is rigged, as crooked as a marked deck or an ace up the sleeve. Marcus has written it all down in a book, Dirty Poker, and expects his expose' to blow the roof off this suddenly red-hot game.
Poker showdowns are on television pretty much around the clock. Online poker rooms are booming. Hordes of those computer players flock to Las Vegas to test their mettle in live games against the best. The biggest tournaments now need vast warehouses to accommodate tens of thousands of entrants and Hollywood celebrities add a splash of glamour to games once played in seedy smoke-filled rooms.
What tipped off Marcus that something was fishy? "There are poker players who are now household names who worked with me in cheating casinos before they got involved in this craze. As soon as I walk in and see these guys, I know they're cheaters, so I know."
How is it done? You name it, he says. The time-honored tactic of marking cards is still alive but with a twist. "People use what's called a dowb. They dowb the cards with a solution that's invisible unless you're wearing certain contact lenses but it disappears and doesn't leave a trace," Marcus said.
Some players gain an advantage by slipping counterfeit chips into the stacks. Some use personal computers to calculate the odds. But the primary way to cheat, Marcus says, is as old as the game itself -- collusion -- working with a secret partner, or two, or ten. Marcus says it happens in every card room in Las Vegas, even during major tournaments. Marcus says, "The cheating that's going on, it's like syndicates. It's organized."
Essential to collusion is communication. A player needs to know what cards his partner is holding. Ever watch the constant stacking, restacking, and movement of poker chips? Marcus says this is one of the best ways cheaters signal each other. One system uses cards like the face of a clock. Putting a chip in a certain place tells someone what's in your hand. "They only do it for a split second. It's like in baseball where the third base coach gives a lot of signals but only one means something. It's the same thing. They go like this, then in a split second he drops two chips like this. Like that ace-king off suit. Only have to do it once."
And there are verbal signals. Marcus explains, "If there's a big pot going on and I say to the dealer, would you send me a c**ktail waitress please, and that tells you on the other end, I just made a full house."
Plenty of honest players must know about it but don't say anything, Marcus says, because, for one thing, collusion is almost impossible to prove. But the card sharks of Las Vegas are only too happy to fleece the naive newcomers to the game. "When I see 8 to 9-year-old kids looking up to poker players as heroes, that bothers me. I can't stomach it. Kids talking about players as heroes when they're nothing but cheaters."
Richard Marcus says the casinos don't police poker too closely because the money being gambled doesn't belong to the house. The best way to keep from being cheated, he says, is to learn the tricks yourself and be able to spot them.
His book, Dirty Poker, will be released in mid March.
Email investigative reporter George Knapp at gknapp@klastv.com
<< <i>Perhaps some here may find interesting this news article about a new book coming out March 15th titled "Dirty Poker" by Richard Marcus.
Dirty Poker news article
If you are one of the millions of people who've taken up online poker, there's a pretty good chance you are being cheated on a regular basis according to a man who may be the most successful gambling cheat ever. Richard Marcus knew every trick in the book when it came to fleecing the casinos. He retired without ever getting caught and is now warning poker players about what they are up against. Marcus spoke exclusively with George Knapp of the I-Team.
There's an old saying about poker. If you can't spot the sucker at the table, then the sucker is you. Considering how much money is involved in poker these days, Richard Marcus says it's entirely possible someone will shoot him for revealing that poker, despite its popularity, is crooked. It's rigged, both the online games and the live tournaments in Las Vegas casinos. He's written a new book called Dirty Poker in which he lays out the sordid details. Here are a few of them.
Richard Marcus said, "I am not an angel. I'm not a saint. I'm a thief. I'm a cheater." Richard Marcus is one of -- if not the most successful gambling cheats in history. For 25 years, he prowled casinos in Las Vegas and around the world looking for ways to separate the house from its money. Craps, roulette, blackjack, and baccarat were his best games. He raked in a bundle but is cagey about how much.
He left the racket a few years ago but stays in touch with his fellow cheaters from the old days, many of whom now have a new line of work -- poker players. Just a few years ago, casinos were taking out their poker rooms so they could install more slot machines, but suddenly, poker is hot. At any given time there's a tournament or two on television. Players have become celebrities. Celebrities have become players. Hottest of all is online poker, now a $12 billion industry, even though it isn't quite legal in the U.S. And with so many new players pulling up a chair, widespread cheating is inevitable, says Marcus.
"Online is just a river full of suckers. If you don't cheat, you're a sucker online," he said. How is it done, and how does he know? Because some of the same techniques that worked in the casinos works online too. One of them is an oldie but goodie, collusion, where players secretly work as a team. "They use multiple Internet providers, multiple IP's, different accounts with different addresses. You could be sitting in China and I could be sitting in Las Vegas and we're working together."
Marcus says some cheats set up a room with eight or more computers and pretend to be eight different people, but it's one person who sees the cards in all of the other hands, a huge advantage. The use of so-called bots, short for robots, poker playing computer software, is also more common than online companies want to admit. The Internet sites use their own bots to fill up tables at times. One company was shut down because its bots had the ability to see everyone else's cards. The Internet poker industry assures players that bots simply aren't sophisticated enough to beat humans. Marcus scoffs.
"The online sites say they can monitor everyone's play and know if someone is using a bot. That's a bunch of bullcrap," he said. But the biggest threat to the integrity of online poker comes from hackers. Marcus says he knows computer whiz's that managed to penetrate the security software of online sites, which allows the hackers to see their opponents' hole cards. Not many people can pull this off, but he says he's seen it done and that hackers will always find a way to defeat defense mechanisms. Marcus thinks the writing is on the wall for online poker.
Richard Marcus said, "I'll tell you right now that in ten years there won't be any more online poker because of the cheating with robots and hackers. The honest players will see they can't win anymore. Before it ends, it will be computers against computers. You're gonna have a whole online table and there's not going to be one human playing. I'm not kidding."
Marcus advises that anyone who plays online poker should stick to the small stakes games because the cheaters are less likely to go after small pots.
Tuesday at 5 p.m., Marcus really unloads with some nasty secrets about Las Vegas poker rooms and some of the biggest names in gambling. His new book Dirty Poker, won't be released until March 15th.
2nd page
Trust everyone, but cut the cards. The old saying is still good advice for new poker players. One of the world's most successful card cheats, retired thief Richard Marcus, says while poker is riding a wave of popularity and glamour it's still just as crooked as in the Old West because of online cheater syndicates. Marcus spoke exclusively with George Knapp of the I-Team.
Marcus said, "Somebody might kill me, George. Somebody might kill me." For 25 years, Richard Marcus was the smoothest casino cheat in town, maybe in the world. He can still walk into a gambling hall, even into a poker room, and not draw much attention, but that's about to change.
"It's about time somebody said what's really going on," he said. What's going on, according to this self-described thief, is a whole lot of cheating. Poker, Marcus says, is rigged, as crooked as a marked deck or an ace up the sleeve. Marcus has written it all down in a book, Dirty Poker, and expects his expose' to blow the roof off this suddenly red-hot game.
Poker showdowns are on television pretty much around the clock. Online poker rooms are booming. Hordes of those computer players flock to Las Vegas to test their mettle in live games against the best. The biggest tournaments now need vast warehouses to accommodate tens of thousands of entrants and Hollywood celebrities add a splash of glamour to games once played in seedy smoke-filled rooms.
What tipped off Marcus that something was fishy? "There are poker players who are now household names who worked with me in cheating casinos before they got involved in this craze. As soon as I walk in and see these guys, I know they're cheaters, so I know."
How is it done? You name it, he says. The time-honored tactic of marking cards is still alive but with a twist. "People use what's called a dowb. They dowb the cards with a solution that's invisible unless you're wearing certain contact lenses but it disappears and doesn't leave a trace," Marcus said.
Some players gain an advantage by slipping counterfeit chips into the stacks. Some use personal computers to calculate the odds. But the primary way to cheat, Marcus says, is as old as the game itself -- collusion -- working with a secret partner, or two, or ten. Marcus says it happens in every card room in Las Vegas, even during major tournaments. Marcus says, "The cheating that's going on, it's like syndicates. It's organized."
Essential to collusion is communication. A player needs to know what cards his partner is holding. Ever watch the constant stacking, restacking, and movement of poker chips? Marcus says this is one of the best ways cheaters signal each other. One system uses cards like the face of a clock. Putting a chip in a certain place tells someone what's in your hand. "They only do it for a split second. It's like in baseball where the third base coach gives a lot of signals but only one means something. It's the same thing. They go like this, then in a split second he drops two chips like this. Like that ace-king off suit. Only have to do it once."
And there are verbal signals. Marcus explains, "If there's a big pot going on and I say to the dealer, would you send me a c**ktail waitress please, and that tells you on the other end, I just made a full house."
Plenty of honest players must know about it but don't say anything, Marcus says, because, for one thing, collusion is almost impossible to prove. But the card sharks of Las Vegas are only too happy to fleece the naive newcomers to the game. "When I see 8 to 9-year-old kids looking up to poker players as heroes, that bothers me. I can't stomach it. Kids talking about players as heroes when they're nothing but cheaters."
Richard Marcus says the casinos don't police poker too closely because the money being gambled doesn't belong to the house. The best way to keep from being cheated, he says, is to learn the tricks yourself and be able to spot them.
His book, Dirty Poker, will be released in mid March.
Email investigative reporter George Knapp at gknapp@klastv.com >>
I do agree that the bot problem is one that really needs to be addressed. As for collusion, that's only really prevalent in the single table SNG's, although I suppose it has it's place in the ring games too. If I've ever been the victim of collusion I can say it hasn't greatly effected my bottom line.
I plan on buying the book - should be an interesting read.
I know that no poker bot ever offered for sale to the public has ever been proven to make money. But now there are people investing millions of dollars in highly sophisticated bots, and of course these bots won't be offered for sale to the public.
Here is a link to an interesting article regarding poker bots. The debate of whether or not money can be made playing online poker is basically over. Online poker always was a sucker's game with not a single case ever of a proven long term documented winner. But at least a gambler had some chance in the short-run to make some money. Now though it is near impossible for an individual poker player to get lucky even in the short-run. I fully agree with sticking with buying and collecting cards. Online poker is now Fool's Folly. I think the last paragraph from this article says it all.
News article about bots
We put poker bots to the test...
28 November 2005
COMPUTER programmers claim they can win every time at the online poker table by using robots - or bots - to play against humans. Could that be true? The Mail on Sunday's Live Night & Day decided there was only one way to really find out - and brought bot-runner 'Dave' into the office to show us.
GAME'S UP? There is no way of knowing who or how many people are playing so it's wide open to cheats, say the experts
He set up his two computers and had them wired together in about ten minutes. Then they simply crunched away. No fireworks, no razzmatazz; just the quiet, steady accumulation of cash. The program made £40 over the course of our office day.
Indeed, so conclusive are such demonstrations that even the most sceptical are fascinated. Darse Billings is the lead designer of the Computer Poker Research Group at the University of Alberta, and his team are designing programs to take on pros, much like Deep Blue took on chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov. Billings says, 'The WinHoldEm bot is basically doomed in any game where the players are really thinking properly. Fortunately at this point, it's a pretty small minority who actually are.
'There are lots of players new to the game who don't really have a clue what they are doing. They make a lot of errors very regularly, and they are not paying attention to the things that matter. They don't notice that someone has never bluffed or that another bluffs all the time. It's all the difference in the world - it's how you win at poker. So you only really have to play a simple system to win. It's why these bots can make steady money.'
So, if you can't beat them, should you join them? Sadly, while there might be thousands of bots playing online, it isn't an easy way to make a living. Poker bots such as WinHoldEm have a basic framework of poker information but require thousands of man-hours' worth of extra programming to make them viable. After that, you're left running what amounts to a giant scam. If you get caught, casinos can seize any of your profits they hold online and close your accounts.
'Graham' runs a high-level bot scam playing around 50 tables simultaneously with associates both in America and in mainland Europe. He claims to have achieved the Holy Grail of botrunners, combining bot software with commercially available programs that collect hand histories of every active player from poker sites all over the world. With this in place, he claims his syndicate will start testing the bot against intermediate players for higher stakes (you'd need about £3,000 to sit down and feel comfortable). Graham claims that bots are probably being used for money-laundering and that the only difficult part of his operation is providing each bot with a clean 'human' face.
'I got banned and had my funds taken when one of the biggest WinHoldEm botters in the world - a Vegas guy - got busted and it led back to me. He got lazy and had 50 accounts seized - enough money to buy a few new cars. The accounts were linked to bank details and then to another account that belonged to a pro poker player; I'd traded him an account of mine and the trail came back to me. Now I need two new identities to replace my bots. After the thousands of hours of programming and testing, I suppose this is the only hard part.'
In response to a request for an interview, John Shepherd, director of corporate communications for Party Poker, gave us a written statement instead. 'We have caught individual cheats and also groups of people who were colluding or using bots,' it reads. 'In all cases, we closed their accounts and seized their funds and barred them from our system. [But] by far the majority of our players prefer to use skill than make any attempt to cheat.'
But sadly for companies such as Party Poker, the story doesn't end there. Because it's not a case of bots or collusion; now you can do both - and when bots collude, they do so far more cleverly than humans. Programmers can seat multiple bots on the same tables and have them read each other's cards via a third-party server. 'It's the difference between going out shoplifting and doing an armed robbery,' says Dave.
Professional player and author David Sklansky is the world's foremost expert on poker - books such as The Theory Of Poker have made him a godlike figure to many bot programmers. He believes getting bots to collude is not only viable but a genuine threat to regular players.
'The biggest problem for card rooms is the bots that are programmed to collude. If you have two or three of your own bots in the same game, then besides playing the basic strategy, they will be able to play an improved strategy based on knowing each other's own cards, and will really cause the other players to struggle.
'If you had a game with three world champion players and three players at a lower individual level who were colluding (sharing cards and information), then all three world champions would eventually lose.'
Meanwhile, back in my study, I'm watching my bot crunch away. I see we have a strong - but not unbeatable - hand, a straight. Buttons flash, money moves into the pot. My opponent then raises to try and scare me out of the pot. But the bot will not be manoeuvred by petty psychology. It has considered all the possibilities the hand has to offer and how the opponent has bet so far, and raises back. And when the final card is turned over, the WinHoldEm calculations are proved correct. We've won. Platinum lightning flashes across the screen.
I should feel ashamed. I always believed there was honour and glory in taking down a pot, in reading a man and using your instincts and self-control to conceal your fear and adrenaline. Of course, I can still find a game like that, but not here - it needs to be with humans, around a card table. The online game is dead: by its very nature, it is wide open to cheats and colluders. The sooner we realise that we don't know who or how many people we're really playing, the better.
i was tempted about a year ago to play serious on-line poker. i had done ok at the casinos usually bringing home a small profit at a 3-6 game, but it was a hassle to drive there etc.
before i signed for on-line i talked to a fellow degenerate gambler who told me of a group of four of his friends who got together and shared cards in the same game on-line. the thought never occurred to me, but it was so simple. as a group they made $1000 per night or $250 per person. Not Bill Gates, but not bad either.
since that chat with him i am sticking to cards. even if pay $150 for a card that will be worth $50 ten years from now, I will still have a $50 card and not feel cheated.
Eyebone
<< <i>Cards or on-line poker?? >>
Both, all the time.
Honestly, I stay at the low levels though. Mostly $10 or $20 single table tournaments. I've played pretty regularly for about three years now. Bought two computers and most of my cards with the profits.
But I'm content to try to win about $100 a week, and refuse to go higher up. If I win $150 in a day playing poker, I'm usually on eBay buying a card I want. SO I DON'T HAVE $150 TO LOSE THE NEXT DAY PLAYING POKER, IT'S GONE. So I can't go to higher limits, I couldn't afford a slow streak if I did. I continue to do well in poker, but the site I play at has recently added a casino and my will power goes to hell after a few budweisers. In a single table tourney, you start with 10 players and the top three pays. Last Sunday, I played in 6 of them. Had 3 firsts, a second, a third, and a did not finish. And because of blackjack in between, I had less money than I started with. Ugh! Instead of being ahead $140 for the day I was down $20.
I've since removed the casino part from my computer and am in the middle of a self imposed break to punish myself for being a dumbas$ and playing online blackjack. You know what they say, "A gambler's money has no home".
I'm close to the Ohio River so there are about four places to play cards within about an hour's drive. I always do well when I play there too, but it's easier to play on line after the kids go to bed than to drive 70 minutes to play.
shawn
<< <i> FWIW, you guys are talking waaayyy too much about 'quitting winners'. It doesn't matter when you quit if you have an edge. >>
I agree with you Boo. In my particular case, an hour or so after "big games" usually all the pissed off people have lost and are gone, and the people that are playing are more serious players, which is why I quit. Of course, just because people call everything doesn't mean I'll win everytime either. The other day I was playing a single table tourney and it was down to me and this other guy. I went all-in pre-flop with A9 suited and I kid you not, he called with 27 off-suit. He hit trip 7's off the flop and a 2 on the turn gave him a boat. I had a few choice words to say about losing to someone who risked all their money to call me with the worst hand in poker...
Collaboration is a problem and there's really not much they can do about it other than not letting people you refer sit at the same table and trying to look at IP addresses for similar addresses.
The Serenity Prayer
God grant me the serenity to except the things I can not change
The courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference.
I hope none of you end up in a meeting reciting this on a regular basis as a result of your gambling. I mean that with all sincerity.
Wherever there's money, there's usually cheating of some kind involved. That's true in every field. I don't see how online poker communities could ever guarantee fair play on the part of its users, especially when you're dealing with dynamic ip addresses (aol users, for example).
<< <i>I don't know jack about poker, but a co-worker of mine was a Vegas dealer for 10+ years. He told me he has several poker buddies who regularly play online and collude against their online competitors, and said he won't play online poker for that very reason.
Wherever there's money, there's usually cheating of some kind involved. That's true in every field. I don't see how online poker communities could ever guarantee fair play on the part of its users, especially when you're dealing with dynamic ip addresses (aol users, for example). >>
David
If the companies wanted, they could stop that.
It would be easy for their program to "track" the same players going into a room on a regular basis and give them the boot.
Let's face it, the odds of the same people meeting up is extremely rare.
I play every day. And it's rare I see the same people. 442Olds and Katzmom - I see from time to time.
mike
<< <i>I don't know jack about poker, but a co-worker of mine was a Vegas dealer for 10+ years. He told me he has several poker buddies who regularly play online and collude against their online competitors, and said he won't play online poker for that very reason.
Wherever there's money, there's usually cheating of some kind involved. That's true in every field. I don't see how online poker communities could ever guarantee fair play on the part of its users, especially when you're dealing with dynamic ip addresses (aol users, for example). >>
The thing that non poker players don't understand is that collusion is very easy to spot, and the edge you get from colluding is usually not very great.
Played a 50 person tourney, $11 entry...first place was $150.
I got.........first place. Let's go to eBay!!!
Hello, my name is Shawn, and I have a gambling problem. I'm staying out of the casino tonight and should be fine.
It would be easy for their program to "track" the same players going into a room on a regular basis and give them the boot. >>
Yeah, I was thinking that they would have several accounts per person. I'll try to get some more detail from him about how their scam worked. I do remember him saying something about them targeting and "slow playing" newbies, whatever that means.
<< <i><< If the companies wanted, they could stop that.
It would be easy for their program to "track" the same players going into a room on a regular basis and give them the boot. >>
Yeah, I was thinking that they would have several accounts per person. I'll try to get some more detail from him about how their scam worked. I do remember him saying something about them targeting and "slow playing" newbies, whatever that means. >>
David
To me "slow playing" is betting small increments to insure you don't force the player to fold. It's part of "trapping" an opponent into thinking you have a weak hand so they will eventually committ more money than they would if the trap wasn't set.
Even if you are playing "limit" holdem where you can't go "all in", I will check, so the other guy will bet, then I will raise (check - raise) the guy to get them to commit more money - sometimes when you do this they will fold.
But, be ready to wind up trapping yourself!!!
mike
I'm just good enough to "scratch out a win or two, once in a while". Overall I'm a sloooooooooo loser online.
I have played in and won a poker tourney at the Hard Rock Casino in Hollywood, Florida. I've made it to the final table online for a trip to Vegas, had to finish first, to win the trip and an entry into a multi-million dollar tourney (package worth well over $10,000.00!). I didn't win squat and it really sucked!
Does that mean anyone with a "chip and a chair" can win?
Anyway, I just took my brother to see the Steve Miller band at the Hard Rock! (Great seats! Great Concert! They Rocked!)
edit: At $75 per ticket, its much cheaper than poker! Much louder too!
rbd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
<< <i>
<< <i>Since it's still illegal to play online for real money in the US >>
I don't understand?
There's a money side and a practice side to Pacific Poker?
What am I missing?
mike >>
Every online poker site has a money side and a practice side. That's how they're able to advertise at all in the US. In general, the money side ends in .com and the practice side ends in .net. Usually the .com also allows you access to the practice side.
I play at PokerStars myself. If you go to PokerStars.net, you can get the software that will allow you to ONLY play for fake money. If you go to PokerStars.com, you can get the software to play for real money. I use the real money one myself but only because it has more features. I don't actually play for real money.
I generally play 45-man tournaments and have been doing quite well, usually in the top 5. Both online for fake money and in casinos/tournaments in-person for real money, I'm well ahead.
Tabe
Dirty Poker: The Poker Underworld Exposed
CONTENTS
Only in Hollywood and Vegas:
An introductory recap of a very suspicious occurrence at a
championship event of a major tournament where a Hollywood actress won the
title. Was this bought and sold for to promote both the tournament and the
actress's career? You bet!
Foreword:
I will state who I am, including my reputation and credibility in the
casino underworld. I will explain why I am writing the book (mainly to
educate the thousands and thousands of players who worry about the integrity
of poker in all its forms, including high stakes tournaments and internet
play) and point out how the poker-playing world can benefit from it.
Introduction:
My earliest exposure to poker cheating as it happened when I was a
child. I refer to the final scene in the famed poker movie "The Cincinnati
Kid" with Steve McQueen and Edward G. Robinson and how my grandfather's
interpretation of it proved accurate through my adulthood.
Chapter One: Who Are today's Poker Cheats?
General overview of poker cheaters from all walks of life, including
real-life celebrities like the Olympic-gold-winning Russian gymnast Vera
Shimanskaya, who got busted for poker cheating in a Spanish casino in 2003.
Chapter Two: The Underworld of Legal Casino Poker
I will address how professional poker-cheating teams take your money,
and how they're so good that even when the staff of public card rooms is on
to them, they can't do a thing about it. I will show the signs to look for
to spot organized cheaters and what to do once you're confident that you're
in a game with dishonest sharks. I will talk about all their methods, many
of which are quite amazing. I will also examine the less common but
nonetheless existence of poker dealers (sometimes in collusion with floormen
and other card room personnel) who cheat unsuspecting players to help
cohorts playing at the game, the money to be divvied up amongst them later.
I'll use graphics to show how colluding players signal the value of their
hole cards amongst one another. Finally, I will illustrate how poker
cheating varies from country to country.
Chapter Three: The "Underworld" Series of Poker
In the early nineties, a certain pattern of seeing a select group of
tournament players winning several tournaments during the World Series
developed. Given the structure of tournament play, where so much luck is
needed to survive until the final table and the difference in skill among
the top few hundred tournament players in the world is minimal, it defies
probability to see three or more multiple winners over the course of
three-dozen events. The truth is that there was a select syndicate of
skilled tournament players during those years who preferred using their
tournament skills the least amount of time possible, in favor of honing
additional skills that served to rapidly cheat their way to final tables and
into the big prize money. I will show how through the use of collusion,
chip-dumping, and even counterfeit chips, cheating groups controlled the
World Series of Poker like a conductor does his orchestra. In fact it is
still going on today, more so than ever. Even on television in front of the
cameras! I will also discuss massive cheating going on in the huge ring
games at the World Series.
Chapter Four: Why Professionals Cheat
The motives are multi-faceted, but prevalent factors are: trying to
win back past gambling losses; satisfying one's ego; or simply the fear that
other players are doing it, therefore, "I have to do it as well in order to
not lose the edge." This chapter deals with the psychology of cheating and
makes comparisons to the American baseball world, where players feeling the
pressure of their peers decided to take performance enhancing drugs to
"cheat" the game. I will also talk about why honest players who are cheated
continue playing even when they know cheating is going on around them.
Chapter Five: The Evolution of Poker Cheating
A general history of cheating at poker, how it evolved with the
times, from the old riverboat and Wild West days of shaving and marking
cards to today's computer hacking and other sophisticated techniques used on
the Internet. There will be some humorous undertones even though the content
is serious.
Chapter Six: Online Oncrime
All about cheating online. There is sophisticated cheating by people
using collusion and computers. The best of hackers break into the online
poker sites with highly intricate software that allows them to actually see
your hole cards and even the next cards to be dealt. I will show how online
cheaters set up fraudulent accounts and even use identity theft to trick and
outfox the sites' security systems. I will also address some questionable
tactics used by the sites themselves. Lesser methods of cheating or online
advantage play will be examined as well.
Chapter Seven: Cheating In Home Games
Overview of home games where people you know as your best friends or
co-workers are cheating you. In fact, it is at these games, with no real
legal legislation or supervision, where the most varied forms of cheating
takes place. The people doing the cheating have only the wrath of the
victims to contend with when caught. Heck, as a lifelong casino cheater I
could live easily with that. The moral of the story is never play poker in
somebody else's backyard without knowing who's sitting next to you.
Chapter Eight: Great Poker Scams
I will list them and detail them. They are all as funny as they are
unbelievable, but true.
Chapter Nine: Where will it go from here?
I will talk about the future of cheating, both online and off, and
offer my personal insight and feelings about it all. I will also tell of how
content I am to be able to help the millions of people across the word who
play poker protect themselves.
Just so we're clear, Steve, my proposal from last year still stands. Anytime you want to take me up on it you can PM or email me.
Best,
Guy
Maybe YOU can't. But I, and many others, can...and legally, with no cheating!
<< <i>"Here's more from the book "Dirty Poker" by Richard Marcus. Still think you can make money playing poker either online or in a casino? You gotta be kidding? - LOL"
Just so we're clear, Steve, my proposal from last year still stands. Anytime you want to take me up on it you can PM or email me.
Best,
Guy >>
Guy - As expected. What took you so long? - LOL
We've already had some good debates about this haven't we? You stated in another CU forum that you were going to start some kind of website project against scammers. If you do, I think that would be a superb project. I only wish you would include online poker in that project because you should already know that online poker has financially harmed and destroyed many people out there, especially young people, as bad and even much worse than any other scam. Perhaps this doesn't bother you but it bothers me. And of course part of the scam is enticing people into thinking that they can make lots of money or be the next Chris Moneymaker despite the FACT that there has never been a single, not one, properly documented proven long term winner.
As far as a proposal...I'll make it much easier for you with this proposal. Here's your golden opportunity to prove to the world what a tremendous poker player you truly are. The thread's all yours Guy!
"Anyone posting in a public forum claiming to be winning money playing online poker should know that taxes have to be paid on that money. Since these posters have publicly stated that they are winning money, therefore opening themselves up to scrutiny, then it should be no problem for them to provide the following information. Simply post proof of this winning money in that same public forum. Post it there where everyone can see it including IRS agents who may decide to review the accuracy of the information to make sure the poster is not a tax cheat. Post copies of the most recent federal income tax returns. Post copies of estimated tax payment forms and canceled checks made out to the IRS. Post copies of credit card transactions and statements from the gambling websites regarding deposits and withdrawals. Before posting though, take all of this paperwork to a reputable accounting firm and have it audited. The CPA will match-up credit card transactions with bank account statements and other documents necessary for a proper audit. Also post a signed letter from this accounting firm certifying the accuracy of the paperwork. Since the poster presumably has already properly filed this paperwork and paid taxes to the IRS, all this information should be complete and readily available to be handed over to the accounting firm for the audit. The audit would probably cost about $2,000 but since a number of these posters claim to be making seemingly unlimited amounts of money playing online poker, a few thousand dollars should be peanuts to them. It has never been witnessed anyone claiming to be winning money playing online poker stepping forward with this very simple task of properly proving it. Unless posting information such as this, then any claims about making money playing online poker is only a rumor."